So there I was at the range doing load work up. No warning at
all.....the rifle was shooting fine one round, but the next it
was like attempting to fire a round without cocking the bolt.
Has this ever happened to anyone shooting a post-64 Win Mod 70?

Anything I can do without taking it to a 'smith (they are as
few hen's teeth around here)? Everything looks tight, but
nothing doing as far as getting it to cock the trigger. Is it
the bolt or the trigger? Needless to say, the safety cannot
be moved to any position other than the one it's in....the
firing position.

This is a left-handed bolt, if that makes any difference.

Any suggestions? Thanx

Same thing happened to me using a Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine. What to do??

What do you mean "fails to cock the trigger"?

Model 70 triggers don't need to be "cocked".

If you mean the firing pin is not staying back when the bolt closes, so it can't be released to move forward and stike the cartridge primer when you pull the trigger, that means the cocking piece is not catching on the sear when you close the bolt.

That in turn usually means someone who doesn't know how has been trying to adjust the trigger.

It is usually caused by inadvertantly adjusting the sear engagement until there isn't enough contact with the cocking piece to hold it back in firing-ready position when the bolt handle is closed.

To cure it, take it to someone with experience adjusting Model 70 triggers and let THEM readjust it. Maybe they will also show and tell you how to do it correctly (and how the trigger is designed to work). Clearly, whoever caused it, they didn't know how to do it right.

The same very often happens with Remington Model 700 triggers and their adjustments BTW. Different operating mechanism, but same cause...adjusting without following the instructions which are easily available in places like Frank de Haas's Bolt Action Rifles paperback book. That's one reason Remington now generally seals the adjusting screws on their triggers.

Could be a broken trigger spring too couldn't it?
With the bolt out of it see if the trigger moves front to back as if it were loose.

Trouble has to be with the trigger spring or sear engagement or bolt sear engagement(cocking piece) or spring. Thats pretty much all there is
to it.
I believe you are in over your head and do have to take it to or send it off to someone.

quote:

It is usually caused by inadvertantly adjusting the sear engagement until there isn't enough contact with the cocking piece to hold it back in firing-ready position when the bolt handle is closed.

To cure it, take it to someone with experience adjusting Model 70 triggers and let THEM readjust it. Maybe they will also show and tell you how to do it correctly (and how the trigger is designed to work). Clearly, whoever caused it, they didn't know how to do it right.

Out of curiosity, how would you suggest that one "adjust" the sear engagement on a Model 70 trigger, and then have that sear engagement "re-adjusted" by another smith? You do know that the model 70 trigger does not have a sear engagement adjustment screw, right?

I suspect that something in the stock is keeping the trigger from returning all the way forward. Take the barreled action out of the stock and see if the firing pin drops when the bolt is closed. If it does not, then you know there is some interference in the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:

quote:

It is usually caused by inadvertantly adjusting the sear engagement until there isn't enough contact with the cocking piece to hold it back in firing-ready position when the bolt handle is closed.

To cure it, take it to someone with experience adjusting Model 70 triggers and let THEM readjust it. Maybe they will also show and tell you how to do it correctly (and how the trigger is designed to work). Clearly, whoever caused it, they didn't know how to do it right.

Out of curiosity, how would you suggest that one "adjust" the sear engagement on a Model 70 trigger, and then have that sear engagement "re-adjusted" by another smith? You do know that the model 70 trigger does not have a sear engagement adjustment screw, right?

I suspect that something in the stock is keeping the trigger from returning all the way forward. Take the barreled action out of the stock and see if the firing pin drops when the bolt is closed. If it does not, then you know there is some interference in the stock.

Which Model 70 trigger are you speaking about? If you are talking one of the recent South Carolina "FN" triggered Model 70's , that may possibly be so, but ALL of the previous Winchester Model 70's do have a trigger/sear engagement screw. It is actually called the overtravel adjustment, and you can make the trigger quit returning to where it will have any sear engagement if you screw up the overtravel adjustment too badly....which is why I refer to it as the sear engagement screw. It ends up with the sear not holding the striker back when you close the bolt.

Moderately and carefully used, it will control overtravel, but improperly used,it will also control (prevent) sear engagement. Call it whatever you want, but its failure usually comes about from an ill-informed attempt to adjust trigger pull weight amd overtravel.

If you do not know which screw that is, you definitely need to read some more on or be shown how that trigger geometry actually works. It is the same big, long screw that the trigger poundage is also adjusted on.

No factory model 70 trigger is adjustable for sear engagement. They are only adjustable for weight of pull and over travel. Engagement is adjusted by carefully grinding the sear.

DannoBoone,

Pull the barreled action from the stock and check to see if the pin that holds the trigger in place is (a) in place or (b) broken. Lift the bolt handle to take the weight off the sear and pull the trigger. You should feel spring tension on the trigger as you pull it. Push and hold the trigger forward to see if she'll cock when you cycle the bolt. If it cocks, and cross pin isn't broken, you might only have to make a simple adjustment. Can you post some clear pictures of the trigger?

.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
No factory model 70 trigger is adjustable for sear engagement. They are only adjustable for weight of pull and over travel. Engagement is adjusted by carefully grinding the sear.

Mr Malm. I know that. If you'll re-read my post you'll now see why I call it a sear engagement screw. I have modified the post, and was trying to do so when you made your post. Unfortunately, just after 11 p.m. every night, for about 5-10 minutes for some reason my high-speed internet connection will not connect to the AR site, so I was kept offline while trying to make it clearer.

AMOUNT OF ENGAGEMENT (engagement depth) is adjusted by honing or grinding. But whether it engages at all can be an inadvertant function of the overtravel adjustment.

AC, quit while you are behind. It's abundantly clear that you know not of which you speak.

Turn the over-travel screw in too much, and it will be impossible to pull the trigger. If that was the case, the rifle couldn't possibly fail to cock, because it would have never uncocked (fired) in the first place.

Actually in a sense an overtravel trigger
does cock.

I had exactly the same problem with my Mod 70 which I rebarrelled to 358 Win. Some of you folk have missed the point that the safety also does not move. This is not because of any adjustment with the trigger but a mechanical "jinx" with the design. My gunsmith Din Collings fixed it very easily.

I know how to adjust trigger & over travel in Mod 70. But my rifle came up with this problem unexpectedly long after the last adjustment.

Any one here who can explain the logic - including th safety not moving????

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I had exactly the same problem with my Mod 70 which I rebarrelled to 358 Win. Some of you folk have missed the point that the safety also does not move. This is not because of any adjustment with the trigger but a mechanical "jinx" with the design. My gunsmith Din Collings fixed it very easily.

I know how to adjust trigger & over travel in Mod 70. But my rifle came up with this problem unexpectedly long after the last adjustment.

Any one here who can explain the logic - including th safety not moving????

The safety won't engage unless the safety notch in the firing pin is aligned with the safety cam, which won't happen unless the firing pin is drawn to the rear and held in the exact position long enough for the safety cam to engage. Or until it's cocked. If the bolt won't cock, the the safety isn't going to engage.

If the bolt will cock but the safety won't engage then it is likely a safety notch timing issue. Though remote, this can be caused by a broken piece, or, normal wear, but more likely the result of someone messing with the sear, changing the cocked position of the firing pin and thus the safety notch alignment and not knowing how to fix it.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
AC, quit while you are behind. It's abundantly clear that you know not of which you speak.

Turn the over-travel screw in too much, and it will be impossible to pull the trigger. If that was the case, the rifle couldn't possibly fail to cock, because it would have never uncocked (fired) in the first place.

Well, sorry you feel that way, but I have seen too many triggers messed up by adjustment to let it pass.

Generally when folks not familiar with the trigger begin adjusting it, they first adjust the spring tension. That is successful for the most part, though it may not get as light a trigger as they want.

Then, having read or heard how "bad" excessive overtravel is for optimal accuracy, they decide to adjust the over-travel while they are at it.

They then try to get absolute miminum overtravel and do indeed adjust it to where they can't pull the trigger.

Their next step often seems to be to give the trigger just enough travel it will function.

But more often than I would have originally believed possible they have the knack of adjusting it to where the trigger WILL move, and some of the time cock and fire.

But, whether that happens from blind bad luck, necessary manufacturing tolerances in the trigger parts, or what, it does happen.

With Murphy being alive and well, they often don't know it is going to be a "part-time" function until the rifle fails them at some time during the next trip or two to the range.

And they often don't realize it is happening because their adjustment hasn't left enough clearance to allow the trigger to move into position to properly support the sear. So they are flummoxed. They don't realize they have adjusted the trigger overtravel to the point where the sear can't be engaged properly by the trigger every time. (Though again, some times it does engage, again probably because of cumulative tolerances, wear, whatever.)

It would have been easy for Winchester production engineers to have made a trigger which would not allow that to happen, but again because of the necessity for tolerances in manufacture, that would have needfully built in enough overtravel that some rifles would have so much as to cause experienced shooters to complain. They solved the one problem apparently, by making overtravel adjustable.

But it does allow novice adjusters to sometimes make trigger/sear engagement a hit or miss thing. In effect, they have adjusted sear engagement to a state of unreliability, which is why I refer to it as an engagement adjustment screw rather than an overtravel adjustment screw. One has to understand that it IS possible to misuse it to the point of erratic function.

Now, if you think that is lack of knowledge of what I'm dealing with, that is fine. Think whatever you wish, it costs me nothing regardless.

I have found that that theoretically impossible problem with them occurs far more often than having the safety not fuction, so that was the problem I was addressing.

Insomuch as it cost you nothing either way, you can think whatever.

Ciao

AC

I have also seen this happen when the inletting is a little too tight around the trigger and it can't return to the proper position for the next shot.

Nice backpedal, careful or you might fall head over teakettle.

So you agree that it is impossible to "adjust" the sear engagement on a Model 70 trigger by turning the screw?

Agree with everything else you said about screwing up a trigger by the uninformed adjusting it, but you are flat out, 100% dead wrong about being able to adjust the sear engagement on a Model 70 by turning the over travel screw. Further, your assertion that a Model 70 trigger can be re-adjusted back after adjusting the sear engagement is just laughable and indicative of a lack of experience with the system.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Nice backpedal, careful or you might fall head over teakettle.

So you agree that it is impossible to "adjust" the sear engagement on a Model 70 trigger by turning the screw?

Agree with everything else you said about screwing up a trigger by the uninformed adjusting it, but you are flat out, 100% dead wrong about being able to adjust the sear engagement on a Model 70 by turning the over travel screw. Further, your assertion that a Model 70 trigger can be re-adjusted back after adjusting the sear engagement is just laughable and indicative of a lack of experience with the system.

Actually, I didn't agree with you, but I didn't want to get in a pissing contest with you by calling you on it or anything else you said. Just trying to clarify what seems to be the trigger problem I have seen the most, and why I use the term engagement adjustment screw. Are you now going to claim the screw has NO role in positioning the lock nuts on it?

As I said. Think whatever you want.

I'll agree you are the trigger genius if that is what is important to you.

EUREKA!! Took the stock off again when I could get a lot
better look at it. There was a granule of powder within the
hole in the tang where the trigger/sear comes up to engage the
bolt which was preventing the sear to raise up.

Thanks to all for the suggestions!

Glad you sorted that out. BUT... how did the granule of powder get there in the first place? Are you loading bullets way out and getting them jammed in the lands and pulling them out - thus dumping powder in the action?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Glad you sorted that out. BUT... how did the granule of powder get there in the first place? Are you loading bullets way out and getting them jammed in the lands and pulling them out - thus dumping powder in the action?

I don't know about you, but I always keep a few extra grains of powder on hand, just in case.

Up to now, this rifle has been nothing more than a range queen,
and has not been exposed to any dirty conditions. About three
years ago, I had a mishap with a round and the contents of the
cartridge spilled into the magazine area. Thought it was all
cleaned out, but apparently one granule of powder got into the
trigger mechanism. The recoil of firing must have worked it into
the problem area, which would explain why one shot worked
flawlessly and the next.....nothing.