I noticed that Lazzeroni arms just started offering their .308 Patriot in a Savage model 116 rifle. I have a number of questions about this combo. First of all, does anyone on site have experience with the Patriot round or with the Savage model 116? Second, I know that standard M700 and M70 rifles cannot be chambered in the Lazzeroni round because the boltface diameter is too small. Is Savage's standard boltface diameter larger? What about Sako's boltface(Lazzeroni offers a Sako as well)? Finally, does anybody else make a short action with a bolt face large enough to accommodate the Lazzeroni cartridges? Thanks!
The September/October issue of Rifle Shooter magazine has an article about this rifle/cartridge combo that would be good for you to read.
John Lazzeroni started making his rifles with reworked Model 700 actions but switched over to the McMillan action which is both larger and stronger. The bolt-face on the Remington 700, when opened up, just doesn't have enough margin of error to suit me...although some gunsmiths will make up the Lazzeroni line with the 700 action. Feeding can be a problem with the 700 unless you do extensive work or buy new bottom metal. I have two Lazzeroni rifles and they are great... a 9.53 HellCat (.375 based on the Partiot) and a Patriot. Velocity is as advertised and they are very, very accurate. I don't think John would put his name on a rifle if it wasn't something of value. By the way, the Patriot makes the new Winchester and Remington shorties look like wimps by at least 150 fps and depending on how you load, 200 fps with the 180gr bullet.
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002
To spare you the cost of that awful 'rag-azine', I'll quote the passage: "Because the Tomahawk and Patriot are based on a case measuring .580 inches at the head and are not rebated, the recessed bolt face that's standard on the 16-FCSS could not be used. Savage modified the bolt head to the same configuration used in the Model 116 Safari Express, which emulates the controlled-round feed of the '98 Mauser. By making the face flush and switching from a plunger-type ejector to a static one, the almost Rigby-size case is accommodated. It is not a true controlled feeding system because the extractor does not engage the case rim until the cartridge is fully chambered and the bolt rotated into battery".
Hope this helps, George
------------------ Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001
quote:Originally posted by DB Bill: By the way, the Patriot makes the new Winchester and Remington shorties look like wimps by at least 150 fps and depending on how you load, 200 fps with the 180gr bullet.[/B]
Bill, I remember reading in the artical that both WSM and Laz short hold 81 grains of water. If thats true then handloaders can enjoy the same velocities with similar bullets. Please correct me if I am wrong. BB
I don't know about the WSM but my Lazzeroni Patriot doesn't have any problem reaching 3150 fps in a 24" barrel. I don't recall the article but consider this...the Patriot does not have a rebated head and the Patriot head size in 0.577 and I think the cases are about the same length. If you look at the two cases side-by-side it looks the Patriot looks like the cousin who pumps iron.
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002
Hey BB, One other thing that helps Laz reach blistering speeds is a "proprietary coating" on the bullets they use. It is supposed to be slicker than the stuff Barnes puts on their XLCs and/or Moly.
Since they are so slick, the Pressure is reduced. That then allows more of a typically faster Powder to be used than can be used with "other bullets" to re-attain the normal Pressure levels. Basically, the Laz bullets can be made to go faster - SAFELY!
I'd considered getting some bullets "Armoloyed" locally and trying them about 10 years ago. But, just never followed through on that project. I really should have tried that.
------------------ Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001
I load for both my 9.53 Lazzeroni HellCat and my Patriot and I don't use the Lazzeroni coated bullets....mine are the run-of-the-mill Nosler Partitions that you can buy anywhere. Having said that, I am planning on using some of the Arizona Ammunition bullets that have a similar coating..these will also be Nosler Partitions. According to the load data that Lazzeroni supplied I am running about 65,000 psi. Lazzeroni brass is not cheap but I have loaded some of my brass more than 10 times and none of the primer pockets show any sign of becoming loose....I also anneal after each 3 reuses to maintain a consistent bullet pull. I'm sure that the Winchester Short Magnum will be a sucess but it will always be a "little brother" to the Patriot. P.S. I haven't measured the capacity of either my Patriot or the new WSM to the case of the neck but I have a hard time believing the WSM is the same as my Patriot.
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002
Hey DB Bill, That sure sounds like excellent Case life to me. I look forward to what you find when using the Arizona Ammo bullets you mentioned. Do you mean they have the same coating on them that Laz uses on their bullets?
I'm a big fan of bullet coatings. I'd also be interested in your opinion of how much copper the Arazona Ammo bullets leave in the Bore, if any. I Moly Coat all my rifle bullets right now, but am always interested in hearing about something better.
Good luck with the Loads.
------------------ Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001
The stuff they coat with is different than the stuff Lazzeroni uses (so I've been told). No one will say but someone hinted it was like NP3 but I don't know and they aren't telling.
One thing about the Lazzeroni brass...when you pick up a piece you know it as it is much heavier than other brass.
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002
I read an article in "Precision Shooting" about a year back that talked about a few of the wildcat rounds based on the Lazzeroni brass. The article mentioned that in cutting up a piece of brass they found that it was unduly thick and you could get greater capacity by basing your wildcat on shortened 300 RUM brass. Presumably this also means that the WSM brass could potentially have a greater case capacity.
