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| One of Us |
Hello, Just finished reading all the comments about set back on Mausers and was recently asked by owner of large collection of Springfield O3 service rifles if the ones deemed as "over hardened/treated/etc" could be re heat treated to make them serviceable?? Many thousands of 03's seeing daily service in WW1 were of so called "low number" rifles and not aware of any major problems. Know that the Army did some double heat treating and was that their effort to correct the problem?? | ||
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this gets asked from time to time, and whereas I have no technical data or expertise to offer, the usual answer is no you can't. | |||
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Metalurgically (did I spell that right?) there were 3 iterations of the Springfield. Somewhere around here I have the break numbers. The first variant were the "low-numbers" (below 700,00 I believe) which most responsible gunsmiths choose to avoid and many of which found their niche as parade rifles. The second group were the "double-heat treated" which were quite serviceable with the 30-06. Finally, Rock Island Arsenal started producing the Springfield with a similar nickel-steel as was used in the Enfield and these are generally regarded as the strongest. Bud W | |||
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I have heard that these receivers could be shattered with a hammer blow- do you know if that is a fact? Just curious. | |||
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Metallurgically !! The best discussion of this problem is found in "Hatcher's Notebook" The Army recommended scrapping the low numbers since they can't be successfully re-heat treated.The low numbers are very brittle as the photos in the book show.Later heat treatments produced a very tough receiver. | |||
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Rifle Magazine had photos of a half dozen or so low number receivers that were whacked with a screw driver. All broke, in some cases through the receiver ring and through the receiver bridge. That is, the metal broke through the major heavier sections of the metal. The mode of destruction: hold the receiver in one hand and whack it with a screw driver held in the other. | |||
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Although I have never tried it, it is my understanding that all low number receivers will most likely shatter if hit with a good blow from a hammer on the front ring. There have been companies that have re-heat treat these receivers in the past but I have never heard anyone say it is a foolproof solution. Still others say that it is not as big a problem as it has been made out to be to begin with. My theory is that everyone has to make up their own mind and be convinced with their OWN decision. Low number receivers are as follows: Rock island Arsenal with a serial number below 285,506 Springfield Armory was not able to pinpoint the exact receiver so 800,000 is an accepted point with most people. Double heat treated receivers are as follows: Rock Island - 285,506 through 319,920 Springfield Armory - 800,00 through 1,275,766 All serial numbers for Rock Island and Springfield Armory receivers above these numbers are Nickel steel. Also, all Remington 1903 and 1903A3 as well as all Smith Corona 1903A3 receivers are all made from Nickel steel. There is a good article on all this Here ****************************** "We do not exaggerate when we state positively that the remodelled Springfield is the best and most suitable "all 'round" rifle".......Seymour Griffin, GRIFFIN & HOWE, Inc. | |||
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I have deleted the first 3 posts I have typed, as none of them had the professional and to the point input I try to give. I am going to keep this very brief so I do not have to delete this one too. Low numbered Springfields are not dangerous. This is no more "fact" than any of the other BS that gets reprinted in gun magazines every year. It gets read and then people regurgitate it without know anything other than what they read in a gun magazine article. Literally thousands more Mausers have experienced lug set back than low numbered Springfields have blown up. Damascus is not dangerous. Black powder shot shellsare not low pressure. WSM's do not do any of the BS they get credit for. If you want "efficiency," then shoot the .30 carbine-hardly any rifle round can touch it. Moly-coated bullets are not magic. M96 Mausers are not unsafe. and on and on. Hundreds of thousands of low numbered Springfields have seen the roughest service a rifle can be put through on the face of this Earth, some of them with round totals in the 6 figures. a few blew up. A T/C Encore blew up the other day. Mausers blow up. M70's blow up. Do you honestly think a low numbered Springfield that has fired 50,000 rounds of ammo that runs over 50,000 psi will really break through the front ring if it is tapped with a screw driver? Just think about that one for a while. I just had to erase some stuff, so I am stopping now. | |||
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It won't matter now. I copied this post in case you decide to erase it at a later date!  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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damn you Westpac!!!  | |||
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Marc I agree with what you are saying. Just curious, have you ever heard of anyone being able to improve the low numbered receivers by re-heat treating them? Many thanks. ****************************** "We do not exaggerate when we state positively that the remodelled Springfield is the best and most suitable "all 'round" rifle".......Seymour Griffin, GRIFFIN & HOWE, Inc. | |||
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Most low number 03s are probably OK but it is impossible to tell which ones are not, so I won't shoot or own one. As to some of them having been shot for thousands of rounds, this is true, but metal fatigue is a possible development and one could pop at any time. Also, the double heat treated actions are stronger than the later nickel steels - the NS were adequately strong and much easier to manufacture, so the armory switched to them. Finally, a few single heat receivers seem to have slipped past the 800,000 mark so my own dividing line is 805,000. | |||
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If the overheating has just caused large grain size you might be able to re-heat treat .If the overheating caused diffusion of phosphorous to the grain boundaries then re-heat treating wouldn't work. ..Just whack the receiver with a hammer before you go to the expense of making a custom rifle.  | |||
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I asked Jack Belk several years ago about re-heat treating them and he said either it wouldn't work or wasn't worth the risk and trouble. He thought it was a bad idea. | |||
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http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/ _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I have no experience with any of the Springfields but have a bit of experience with RE-heattreating of many various industrial products and it's against the odds that a product is saved by this rework method. In other words, if it wasn't heat treated right the first time, in all likelyhood, it will deteriorate with subsequent attempts to "fix it". /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I agree with you Vapo. If you have over heated to the point hwere you had excessive grain growth, then it would likely require mehcanical working to break up the grains and get a stronger structure. It is kinda hard to reforge a reciever! | |||
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Here is my not as education as some understanding of the issue. Mausers are soft, a good many of the military ones that is, and because of that carbon can be added to the surface to a certain depth. What is called simply "rehardening". Because the problem with springfields is that they are brittle or "too hard" to begin with I don't know what could be done. I have read somewhere that they can't be annealed like you would a mauser prior to "rehardening". Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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DR- Steel is made up of grains, and grain size is a a key element in detrmining the mechanical properties of the steel. Large grains can have a very high strength, but very little ductility. Grains grow as steel is heated, but can be broken up by working the steel. Forging smashes the grains and the fine grain steel is much less brittle. Once an daction is formed, you can't reforge it. If the grains have grown too large due to over heating, then the action is toast. | |||
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The answer to your question is a resounding NO! Nothing can be done to make BAD low-numbered 1903 Springfield receivers better. The reason that a few are bad is that they were OVER-HEATED (by as much as 300 degrees on sunny days!!) during heat-treatment, resulting in the chrystalization of some trace elements in the steel, and some of the carbon was burned out of the steel. When they were quenched, they became brittle. BUT THIS WAS ONLY TRUE OF SOME OF THEM, NOT ALL SUCH RECEIVERS!! (The ones made on cloudy days were OK??) After changing over to the double heat-treated receivers in 1918, the Army adopted a policy of replacing the low-numbered receivers IF AND WHEN a low-numbered rifle was returned to the armory for major repairs-the Army continued to use the rest of them as if there was no real problem with the vast majority of such rifles-and there isn't!! Look at it this way. Those low-numbered actions were used by the Army with ammo developing 50K PSI from 1903 well into the late 1930's, with VERY FEW FAILURES during that time period. If you read Hatcher's Notebook, he lists most of the known failures that were documented by Army Ordnance. IMO, any low-numbered Springfield action that was going to fail did so many decades ago. Those that survived being used for all those years BY THE TROOPS have a 99.99% (or better) chance of continuing to work just fine as long as standard factory .30/'06 pressure level ammo is used in them. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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IF you read Hatcher's book carefully, you will discover that what he said about brittle receivers applied only to a relatively small number of them. The vast majority of the "low-numbered Springfields" remained in service - and receivers were only replaced on rifles that were returned to the armory for major rebuilds. This was a small number over the years. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Lyon even implies that the bad receivers might have been due to specific employees on specific shifts, I think. Anyway, there's a paragraph in there that makes you wonder. http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/ off topic: one side of my wife's family worked at SA, more than one generation, if my memory serves. | |||
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Ah yes, the disgruntled employee! Why not..._______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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maybe just an old scudder who found pyrometers new-fangled and unnecessary... I'm approaching that phase of my life or he was DRUNK- I went through that phase, too  | |||
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Sedgely in Philadelphia was reheat treating low number 1903s right through the 1930s and early 1940s. I am part of a small coterie of guys - Mike Petrov is dean of the group - who are interested in the classic custom 1903s made before WWII. For what it is worth, none of us have ever heard of a Sedgely Springfield popping. Equally, none of us know what Sedgely did with these actions. | |||
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It's probably the same guy who spits in your food, strips the drain bolt in your oil pan and doesn't tell you about it, or, pisses in the company coffee pot. He's out there... _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Re heat treating is a misnomer. After several converstations with D'Arcy Echols and with Jack Belk, a few things came to light. One is the you do not just harden a Mauser action, you first soften it then bring it back up to specs. I know a lot of Mausers out there that are original and have never had a problem after many rounds. Others have developed headspace but for various reasons, Mostly overloads and rechambering to more intense cartriges (magnums). I think its rare. D'Arcy says redo all Mausers, and all rifles he makes are given that makeover. Jack Belk says many of the better Mausers are fine and the reason many are condemed is folks don't know how to test them because they are only hard in some areas. Mausers have a skin that is hard in the pressure areas, they are soft underneath those areas and in the areas that don't take pressure. This is by design so that they don't frag like a M-70 will. A Mauser will puff up and may even split but not frag according to Jack, and I think this is true. He says a redo on many Mausers is akin to painting a tin barn. Both of these guys are true experts on Mausers IMO, so it must boil down to strong opinnions. I'm not sure anyone knows the whole story, maybe some actions are better than others and the truth lies somewhere in between. I think D'Arcy goes on the play it safe and do it, its cheap and takes out all the risk! sounds like a plan to me. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have a low numberd springfield. It is chamberd for the .257 Roberts. The smith I bought it from shot it a lot when it was chamberd for the 6.5X57. He said he would stick with loads in the 50,000 range andit will be fine. Som body put a link on here that is really informative. My 03 was made in 1905 most likly it was a 30,03 at one time. Sure shoots good ! ...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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Hello, Appreciate all of the data/information given on the 03's and will pass on to the original inquirer. | |||
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