quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
I am good at that, unfortunately at my age, my punches don't pack the wollop they used to.

Old timer(64) here too. Makes memories more indelible doesn't it? Best Wishes.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
US Code 922(a)(2)(A), 922 (a)(3), 922 (a)(5) and 922 (e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30.

The Federal statutes that require anyone shipping a firearm to notify the carrier that the shipment contains a firearm.

Not true. Take some time and read the regulations you referenced. Notification required if the firearm is being shipped to a NON-LICENSEE.

If you're going by the BATFE's inaccurate FAQs from their website, you're wrong. By quite a bit. BATFE's legal department will provide you with a clarification and legal opinion stating everything I've just posted.

quote:

Originally posted by ca_reloader:
Customstox, Stepchild:

I admit I was incorrect about long guns.

The problem is that you have not given the firearm to UPS. A UPS Store is not UPS. UPS clearly states that any firearm must be shipped at a service center or a regular pickup. You handed your firearm to a person, no different than if you hand handed it to someone walking down the street. There was no background check, no 4473, and if applicable, no waiting period. The situation is very similar to the recent posts about how FedEx handles insurance claims. I'm not trying to find fault with what has happened, just to point out the real problems that can occur if you do not follow the published proceedures on shipping firearms.

Not true. Transfer of custody only occurs when the package is opened and the firearm is removed.

This is why an individual can ship a firearm to himself without need of an FFL holder, because custody never changes as long as the package isn't opened by anyone else.

UPS and other carriers possess no FFL of any type.

Ca reloader, you could hardly be any more wrong. You are not giving the gun to anyone. A UPS store is owned by UPS,at least the one here is, but by their regulations you can not ship a firearm through that location. Find and dandy but the clerk who should know those regs and not you, they received the rifle, and took money for insurance. It is not a federal regulation that stops you from shipping through a UPS store.

And as stated, no forms have to be filled out and no background check because there is not a transfer. He was in the process of sending a firearm and their people did not make him aware of the problem.

The ignorance of the law does not apply. We are not dealing with laws but UPS rules and why should we be required to know all of those.

In general, UPS is the absolute worst place to ship in my view.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Ca reloader, you could hardly be any more wrong. You are not giving the gun to anyone. A UPS store is owned by UPS, but by their regulations you can not ship a firearm through them. Find and dandy but the clerk who should know those regs and not you, received the rifle, and took money for insurance. It is not a federal regulation that stops you from shipping through a UPS store.

And as stated, no forms have to be filled out and no background check. He was in the process of sending a firearm and their people did not make him aware of the problem.

The ignorance of the law does not apply. We are not dealing with laws but UPS rules and why should we be required to know all of those.

While I agree with the bulk of your post, let me point out one thing: The UPS Store (formerly known as Mail Boxes Etc.) are independent franchises. However, they are contracted as agents of UPS.

ca_reloader spent a great deal of effort to PM me some kind of hokus pokus BS regarding what some nitwit BATFE field office told him. In the end he was simply quoting UPS's and Federal Express' policies which are NOT federal law. BATFE field offices are the absolute WORST places to seek legal advice or OPINIONS on the legality of shipping firearms.

I've spent many, many years shipping and receiving firearms. The BATFE's LEGAL department in Washington, D.C. will provide a WRITTEN LEGAL OPINION supporting everything I've posted.

JUST SAY NO TO UPS. USE THE USPS: TWICE THE SERVICE AND HALF THE BULLSHIT.

Just Some Guy,
YOu might take another look at CFR Part 478.31.

"a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped:"

That language is a bit convaluted and I am not sure if it is saying that the written notice to the common carrier has to be supplied in any case or is it just when they are shipping to a person who does not fall under "a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector". I believe it suggests that the package to those licensed people has to have the written notification.

It is my understanding the UPS bought out Mail Boxes Inc. and own the company UPS Store.

Another question, is the USPS a common carrier or contract carrier? Regulations do not allow an unlicensed person to send a pistol by the USPS, and it goes on to state that they must be sent by common carrier. A common carrier by legal description is also supposed to ship freight or passengers if space is available. I know of no UPS or FEDEX plans that carry passengers. That definition may have changed and or my source may be flawed.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Just Some Guy,
YOu might take another look at CFR Part 478.31.

No, YOU might ought to CAREFULLY read it:

"No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered....to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector....without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped..."

TO ANY PERSON OTHER THAN, meaning to deliver to a non-licensee as when a licensee is returning a firearm to the owner. As stated previously, BATFE's LEGAL department in Washington, D.C. will gladly provide a legal opinion stating as such.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
It is my understanding the UPS bought out Mail Boxes Inc. and own the company UPS Store.

Each store is an individual franchisee just as when MBE was in existence.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Another question, is the USPS a common carrier or contract carrier? Regulations do not allow an unlicensed person to send a pistol by the USPS, and it goes on to state that they must be sent by common carrier. A common carrier by legal description is also supposed to ship freight or passengers if space is available. I know of no UPS or FEDEX plans that carry passengers. That definition may have changed and or my source may be flawed.

The USPS is part of the executive branch of the federal government whose function it is to deliver the U.S. mails.

I agree that UPS is the worst, and USPS the best, place to ship a long arm.

UPS wanted $75 to ship to Hawaii a rifle I sold, and I would have had to take off work to get it to their very specific kind of store ("customer service center" - right!). The closest was an hour and a half round trip, and only open when my boss expects me to be there for him.

USPS, OTOH, gave me no trouble at all, and I shipped it from my local post office for $39. (That's two in a row that went out of CONUS; I have to start specifying "actual shipping" costs in my ads.)

I haven't done it, but I understand UPS is a necessary evil for handguns, since USPS won't do them.

It's been too long for me to start using terms like "transfer" and "common carrier," but my understanding was the limitation on "having" a rifle or shotgun was in the receiving, not the sending. People can ship them, but as a non-FFL-holder, I may not receive them, unless I shipped to the FFL holder first. Thus, my shipment to the manufacturer, or other gunsmith, is legal, as is their shipment back to me.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
I haven't done it, but I understand UPS is a necessary evil for handguns, since USPS won't do them.

FFL holders may file a PS Form 1508 with the USPS and ship handguns and any other type of firearm. Unlicensed individuals may only use the USPS for the shipment of long guns; private companies must be used for handgun/concealable firearm shipments by individuals.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
It's been too long for me to start using terms like "transfer" and "common carrier," but my understanding was the limitation on "having" a rifle or shotgun was in the receiving, not the sending. People can ship them, but as a non-FFL-holder, I may not receive them, unless I shipped to the FFL holder first. Thus, my shipment to the manufacturer, or other gunsmith, is legal, as is their shipment back to me.

Jaywalker

That is correct.

JSG

Just out of curiosity, does anyone like you? I can't imagine anyone that would. It seems you use this forum to stir up sh*t with anyone who responds to your ignorant posts. Now be honest and tell the truth, does ANYONE like you? Not sure if you remember me or not, but you took the liberty of sending me some private messages that showed your true colors. You're still as pathetic as ever. The goal of you being on this forum is to search out anything you can to contradict. What a pathetic existence.

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:
JSG

Just out of curiosity, does anyone like you? I can't imagine anyone that would. It seems you use this forum to stir up sh*t with anyone who responds to your ignorant posts. Now be honest and tell the truth, does ANYONE like you? Not sure if you remember me or not, but you took the liberty of sending me some private messages that showed your true colors. You're still as pathetic as ever. The goal of you being on this forum is to search out anything you can to contradict. What a pathetic existence.

No wonder my folks were so disappointed. But hey, don't go away mad, just go away.

Here is the TOS that Stepchild was referring to

Read it correctly and IMHO it says they are responsable for nothing except taking your money and package, everything else is just luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
Here is the TOS that Stepchild was referring to
http://www.mausercentral.com/mcgallery/./data/media/3/UPS.JPG
Read it correctly and IMHO it says they are responsable for nothing except taking your money and package, everything else is just luck.

That's been the big talk on the NFA weapons boards as of late. UPS has gone to a no-pay insurance policy on high valuation items -- firearms in particular. The best thing to do is avoid using the sorry bastards in the first place or make damn sure you purchase insurance from an independent underwriter if you do. (Collectibles Insurance Agency is the main one, but I'm sure there are others.)

http://www.collectinsure.com/faqguncollectgen.htm

Q. Do you cover shipping and mailing losses?

A. Yes. See the Frequently Asked Questions on shipping and mailing for gun, knife and edged weapon collectors.

I just shipped a couple of rifles back to their owners and this morning I see an email message from the "Big Brown" saying that they are charging my credit card an additional $6.00 because one of the hard rifle cases didn't have cardboard covering it. I've shipped my share of guns over the years with the "Big Brown", but this is a first... needless to say, I am not too impressed. The "Big Brown" is definitely a turd.

Malm,

Why mince words? They are fucking assholes.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Malm,

Why mince words? They are fucking assholes.

My only question is, why do you continue to use them? I know they pick up but the post office will too and you can print off your own package details and pay for it online. Your insurance amount is limited in those types of transactions though and you can not do a regisered package in that manner.

I've had my UPS account since 1980. For the most part it's worked out pretty well as far as convenience goes. Never had to file a claim in all those years. My major problem with them has been in receiving my orders. For some reason as of late, some orders have been misplaced or missed being loaded on their truck. Until recently, I haven't seen a need to look elswheres for service. What is DHL like, anyone know? I'll have to do some checking with the Post Office. My concern is in having to stand in long lines and wait for the next available window.

I don't know if the Letter carrier can accept firearms or if I have to take the packages in. I would much rather be repairing guns than standing in lines...

The standing line group in my post office is a scarey scene. Id rather go over to the dariy farm and stand by the feed troff!

What about FedX or DHL???

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
What is DHL like, anyone know?

DHL has already stated that they will not accept firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
I'll have to do some checking with the Post Office.

File a PS Form 1508 and as a licensee you may now ship any type of firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
I don't know if the Letter carrier can accept firearms or if I have to take the packages in.

You cannot purchase more than $200 of insurance without presenting your parcels at a customer service counter. However, I'm nearly 100% positive that the USPS will accomodate large volume shippers.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
The standing line group in my post office is a scarey scene. Id rather go over to the dariy farm and stand by the feed troff!

I'm sure they all speak highly of you as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Herb D:
What about FedX or DHL???

Federal Express is just about as bad as UPS. What's worse is their ground service. Federal Express Ground is nothing more than the old RPS with a new label. RPS made use of contractors for delivery; sometimes you get a good one, but often you do not. More problems with theft and bungled deliveries.

DHL has already stated that they won't accept firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by ca_reloader:
I refer you to PS Form 1508

http://www.usps.com/forms/_pdf/ps1508.pdf

BUT, that form can ONLY be used by a dealer or a manufacturer. The form does not prohibit a non-dealer or manufacturer from mailing a rifle! Forms are NOT regulations!

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

Originally posted by ca_reloader:
I refer you to PS Form 1508

http://www.usps.com/forms/_pdf/ps1508.pdf

BUT, that form can ONLY be used by a dealer or a manufacturer. The form does not prohibit a non-dealer or manufacturer from mailing a rifle! Forms are NOT regulations!

ca_reloader possesses some difficulties in reading. Like the part on PS 1508 where it states "This form can only be used by manufacturers or dealers of firearms." The FORM, ca_reloader, not the SERVICE, the FORM.

Nor does he understand the purpose of the form, which is to make a blanket declaration for shipping firearms by federal firearms licensees, vice declaring each individual shipment.

For Customstox: http://www.theupsstore.com/about/abotheups.html

"The stores remain locally owned and operated...."

Just some guy, I called the local UPS store and got the same info that you provided, that they are individually owned. Thanks for the reference.

Maybe we could bring back the Pony-Express and not worry about all this stuff!