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is this thing going to be? Has anyone tested barrel length and muzzle blast? (I'm posting this in Gunsmithing because these fellows seem to be quite a curious [inquisitive] and compulsive lot.) There are a lot of tests on barrel length and velocity. Seems folks like to cut off barrels in increments, sort of like docking a pup's tail, but I've found nothing regarding sound levels. | ||
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What thing ? | |||
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. The general rule with explosives: "The closer you get to the blast, the more damage you will incur." Noise and energy levels go up as you get closer to the muzzle. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Yes, but how close is too close? I see factory rifles with 16.5" barrels in typical hunting chamberings. At what point does the shooter regret not getting a 20 or 22" barrel? | |||
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That is way too subjective for anyone to answer. Doug Wilhelmi NRA Life Member | |||
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Noise and concussion is relative to caliber, the particular load and barrel length. I had a 600 Mohawk in 308 with an 18.5 inch barrel that was wonderful to shoot. On the other hand I had the same gun in 350 Remington Magnum which was inhuman to shoot. Imagine being sealed in a 45 gallon drum and having lightning strike it. The muzzle blast would smack my glasses against my face and the noise was akin to having ice picks pushed into my ears. I guess if you want a rule of thumb to go by. If most of the powder has burned up by the time the bullet leaves the barrel it's going to be pleasant to shoot. If it's still digesting powder, the bullet leaves at full pressure and fire and brimstone is leaping 6 feet of the barrel when you pull the pin, it's gonna be loud, blasty and painful! When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I know my short barreled scout rifles are louder then my longer barreled rifles. | |||
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 Muzzle blast isn't all that bad. Max loads with ball powder make an impressive fire ball. | |||
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This. An 18 inch 30-30 is going to be a pussycat compared to a 26 inch 300RUM as far as noise is concerned. OTOH if you load said RUM with a light load of say 3031, it will seem much easier on the ears than if you load the same RUM and barrel length with a full dose of RL25. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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This is going to be a good deal more complex than I suspected. -Sound is wave motion, i.e. the movement of air molecules. This is actually an aid to understanding, at least for me. -The eardrum doesn't perceive changing levels in a linear fashion. -Brief (<2 millisecond) bursts of high intensity sound, like muzzle blast, are very difficult to measure using sound level meters. SLM's are good at measuring steady state sound, like machinery. They don't do well measuring peak pressure levels (PPL's). -Sound reported in decibles, actually decibel sound pressure level (dbl SPL) is not linear. Ex: 150 dbl SPL/Peak Pressure Level is twice as loud as 140 dbl SPL. I hope that I can eventually produce a chart or graph showing sound levels vis-a-vis barrel length. It is possible that a simple, indirect measurement device, such as a balloon fitted over a muzzle, could suffice. Simply measure the diameter of the ballon at its maximum using a high speed digital camera? Shades of Harold Vaughn. Please be patient with me. | |||
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Interesting task. I love my long barrels shooting cast bullets with SR 4759 while hunting! The best of all worlds when it comes to noise! "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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It's a lot more complicated than this and there are very few sound level meters that will even capture accurate measurements from muzzle blast. The silencer guys probably know this topic better than anyone. | |||
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Modern powder coatings have reduced both muzzle flash and muzzle blast. Burning all the powder inside the barrel also helps. Lots of kids ,by the time they are 18 have lost a good partof their hearing from rock music played very loud !!! | |||
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If you are trying to capture the gas in a balloon when you fire the gun, it won't work. Balloons might as well be made from ceramic. They can not expand fast enough over that time interval. They will shatter like a light bulb the instant you pull the trigger. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Depending on caliber, but I can't tell much difference between a Win. 30-30 trapper with a 14 inch barrel and a mod. 64 with a 24 inch barrel....I can tell the difference in a high velocity carbine and rifle however..A 20 inch 220 Swift of a cowboy friend of mine, pre hearing protection era was down right abusive.. Same with muzzle brakes, some of them are horrible but others I can't tell much if any difference, all explosions are loud for that matter...I shoot a .338 with a muzzle brake (Ruger 77 African) and it bothers me not..I had a 300 win mag with a brake that bothered me so much I sold it. My approach is to shoot it then make a decision as opposed to overthinking the problem. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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You also can't produce a chart for barrel length verses noise level. You would have to produce a chart for every caliber, at every barrel length, with every possible load combination of bullet and powder. Several billion combinations I should suspect. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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You are right, Spear. The sound pressure level will be a direct result of the wave from the muzzle, which in turn depends on the amount of energy, which will be the result of the powder, velocity, etc. So yes, a chart will only be an approximation. That said, I'm hopeful that I can produce something of some value to hunters and shooters. As to the balloon theory, it was just a theory. I suspect the balloon would be like water-very inelastic when struck with a fast-moving object. | |||
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The amount of noise generated by a cartridge is dependent on four factors: bullet weight, powder burning rate, barrel length and expansion ratio of the cartridge. By expansion ration, I mean the distance a bullet has to travel in the barrel before the volume of space behind it is doubled, which is much shorter in a straight walled case, like the .458 WM than it is in an "over bore capacity" case, such as the .300 Weatherby. With a given barrel length, the cartridge with the highest expansion ratio will create the least noise. So a cartridge like the .300 Winchester Magnum, which has virtually the same useable care capacity as the .458 Winchester Magnum, will create more noise, when both are loaded to maximum pressure. (I was quoting my definition of expansion ratio from memory. Like most such definitions, it was partly right. Here is a more comprehensive xplanation: http://www.t)hefreelibrar)y.com/...ion+ratio.-a03578530 | |||
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There are some engineers who have some long winded thoughts on the subject. https://www.aiha.org/aihce06/h...s/rt239michalski.pdf http://www.sandv.com/downloads/0908rasm.pdf https://www.pcb.com/aerospace/.../pressure_blast.aspx When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Thanks for the references, Spear. I've just skimmed them, but will dig deeper. A poster on AR15.com stated that Quickload will calculate pressures at the muzzle in psi, and gave some examples: 16" barrel 11,000 psi 20" 8,500 24" 7,000 I don't recall that he noted the load data. It is just possible that this approach might yield what I am seeking, which is shooter/bystander perception of/response to muzzle blast. It seems to me that it would not be difficult to test using the human ear. What do you think? | |||
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This is harder than you think. Talk to the guys who make silencers. | |||
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Ask Alf--- he will go on a lot longer than you want to listen. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Having the PSI of the gas at the muzzle will help, but you will also need the temperature of the gas and how much gas - the volume of the barrel & case - in order to calculate the total energy of each shot that potentially will get transformed into noise. Might be easier to use the energy in the powder before ignition, but trying to figure out how much energy is lost in heating the barrel will be a problem. The powder articles in Handloader magazine usually give a number for how much energy is in the powder. | |||
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Thought you might find this pic interesting:  And as you say, there are waaay too many variables to form any sort of competent chart or graph. Even this pic, I do not know if this is the actual volume of gas or has a substantial amount of it been reduced due to the temperature of the water? for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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I have crossed eyes from reading all the above. Here is a real-life "experience" and anecdote. I have shot a lot of animals over the course of my now 62+ years, albeit nowhere near as many as say, Ray, or those of a bit longer tooth. What I WILL say is this: if I hit what I was shooting at, although I knew the rifle had reported, I did not "hear it". It was almost as if the brain had shut down the noise to the point of it almost not being there. If I missed, however, the noise was almost excruciating. Somebody explain THAT! I know I am not the only person that has experienced this... | |||
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You don't seem to feel any recoil, either, Doubless, when shooting at big game. However, I'm pretty sure the noise is still doing us damage. (Some say previous pounding from shooting at the range can still make us flinch, too, though we feel nothing at the shoulder. I would not be surprised if really heavy recoil is deleterious to the brain, as well.) Truth be known, pretty much everything beyond a .22 rimfire makes too much noise for the good of our ears. Best not to ask an audiologist for hard decible figures, though, as it might give the antis another rod to beat us with. | |||
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Time and health are not going to allow me to do the tests I intended. Thank you all for the constructive criticism. This is what I intended to do: Gather a few folks at the range and place them at measured distances from the shooter. Provide each with a simple evaluation form, like on a scale of 1-10, how bad was it? Light off a few various barrel lengths/calibers/loads. Collect/combine the results into a rudimentary report. I understand that this will be quite subjective, but so is muzzle blast/report as perceived by the ear. Perhaps another fool can be persuaded to give it a try. Brice | |||
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What?  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Was that a "yes", Ray? | |||
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No, its a what, what is a major part of my verbal conversations these days! MY wife asked my grandson "what did papa say?..He said He said what he always says What What What..Thanks to muzzle blast. But all that glitters is not gold, the upside is I love my quite world, if it becomes necessary I stick in my new high dollar hearing aids, but damn the clacking plates, rattleing key rings in my truck, loud resturants etc. how in the world did I live with that all of those young years, its terrible.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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That's probably a good starting point. That should give you an idea on how different powders and bullets would affect the loudness, in addition to the barrel length. Even so, I'd wager a 338 at 10,000psi muzzle pressure is louder than a 17 at the same pressure. Of course a brake would make it significantly louder for the shooter too. Also, what thing? | |||
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