Although it might have offended a lot of people I think Allen said something important and I agree with him. He was not talking about the people who do gunsmithing on their own and are good at it. Didn't Jeffeosso get a 500 Jeffrey to feed? Seems that a lot of smiths with signs over their door have a hell of a time with that.

The fact is that there are a lot of people that aren't good at it and do it anyways, and some that actually charge for it and are scary with their results. I mean scary unsafe.

The other part of what he said is also very true, many people gets this thing of "if I wouldn't do it then it is stupid or a waste". I find myself thinking this when I look at rifles that cost 50k. I think,"man, you could do so much more for that money." But then I have to remember, if you can afford these type of things then the money to go out and use them is not a problem. This came up yesterday when I was at a custom coach company talking to the VP and he was saying how he had some guys come in and buy million dollar rigs on the spot, just see them and buy them. I said I couldn't imagine paying that much for something like that, but that I guess you get used to it. One of the current projects is a custom hauler for a guy that has a car collection (Duesenburg, birdcage Ferrari). It is costing a fortune. But the guy flys in on a Gulfstream jet to pick it up himself. all relative ya know.

So all that to say that some guys are happy with and do very well everything they want with an off the shelf rifle. some guys go the custom route. As long as both are able to appreciate the other for their desires nothing wrong. but nobody should be knocked for doing it one way or the other.

Now DJ, he's just a showoff.

Red

There is nothing "nouveau riche" about owning the best products you can afford; doing so without understanding what makes them 'the best' may be, doing so to impress others definitely is.

Owning something top-notch because it meets your performance or quality standards is perfectly sensible. If you can afford it, fine; if you cannot afford it, make do with something less expensive. It may be 'good enough' for you, but it is not necessarily as good as the top-notch item.

Whether it is guns, optics, cars, boats, or watches, people tend to rationalize their own choices/compromises, and denigrate other peoples' choices/compromises, to a greater or lesser degree, depending upon the maturity level of those involved.

An H&R Handi-Gun with a Leapers scope may shoot well, but it cannot compare to a Ruger #1 with a Leupold, or a Dakota Model 10 wearing a Zeiss scope.

Butchers who call themselves 'gunsmiths' and people who think a $500 rifle is equivalent to a $2000 or $7000 rifle don't need defending; they need a reality check. BTW, most of my guns are in the $500 range, and they don't compare to the $1000 or $2000 guns I own, except in the accuracy department.

FWIW, Allen Day has never come off as "nouveau riche" in all the years I've been sharing this forum (and others) with him. He has decided that performance and reliability are paramount in his rifles, and he is willing to spend money to achieve them. He sounds pretty smart to me.

George

quote:

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Originally posted by jimmyd223:
To me a custom is just that! Whether it is a custom home, car or bike or gun. You hire someone of your choosing to build what you want and like.
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That is the way I look at it too. I cast my vote for the personalization category because in my "honestly untrained" mind that does not rule out either function or beauty, quite the contrary. It means I use the action I choose, the stock I choose and so on. Which is why I have a difficult time understanding why some guys have stated that they like all of the above, and then turn around and say they voted for the more limiting mechanical category.

Perhaps this is just a case of misunderstanding because of the descriptions I gave. Whatever the case, thanks to all for your participation and especially for the pics of your fine creations. Ive learned from it.

Wstrnhuntr,

I tried to vote for all of the choices but when I clicked on one and then another only one would register. Perhaps holding the Ctrl key would do it but it's too late now.

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Originally posted by allen day:
Gee whizz Wstrnhuntr & Savage99, I'm sorry to have offended you so. Did my description sound like you?

AD

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I dont have to wonder, I know who your condesending remarks were directed at. And no you didnt offend me, because I dont hold your disparaging sewage from your pedestal in high enough reguard to allow that.


Why couldnt you just state your opinion and cast a vote like everyone else without making it personal? Did you think that this was all about you?

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Originally posted by Savage99:
Wstrnhuntr,

I tried to vote for all of the choices but when I clicked on one and then another only one would register. Perhaps holding the Ctrl key would do it but it's too late now.

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Originally posted by Customstox:
DJ,
Well said and as always, gorgeous work. I would be honored to join the "kitchen table idiot society" with you.

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Is it safe to assume that any rationalization for your vote can be found in your signature?

DJ,

I like the complete harmony in the rifle.

Very nice – Congratulations.

Roland

Wstrnhuntr and other members,

Regarding: Characteristics of a custom rifle.

Personalization, components and specs you want. Mechanical design, function, reliability and the potential for accuracy, beauty and uniqueness is all part of a whole, the desire of trying to reach perfection and satisfaction with a unique creation of a custom gun.

I quote Mr. Turpin – Modern Custom Guns

“There are many shooters who are not happy with out-of-the-box factory models. Unfortunately, most simply can’t afford a full blown custom job from a good maker. Wanting is one thing, but making it happen is another. I would dearly love to have Dave Miller or John Bolliger make me one of their fantastic custom rifles. If this book sells a million copies, I will plunk down an order for one of each. Until that happens, though, I guess I will just have to be content with what I haveâ€

I think for most people, a lot of truth lays in Mr. Turpin’s words.

Good luck everybody,

Roland

“Butchers who call themselves 'gunsmiths' and people who think a $500 rifle is equivalent to a $2000 or $7000 rifle don't need defending; they need a reality check. BTW, most of my guns are in the $500 range, and they don't compare to the $1000 or $2000 guns I own, except in the accuracy department.â€

If accuracy is what you are interested in, then isn’t that a defense for thinking that a $500 gun can compare to a $2000 gun? I too am a “Kitchen table†gunsmith. I have several rifles some, I’ve been told, are quite pleasing to look at and I do like to look at “purty gunsâ€. That being said, when I go to the woods to hunt I am looking for an efficient tool to use for a specific purpose and I don’t really want to have to worry about scratching up a stock that it took me several months to finish.
I’ve got a synthetic stocked Mauser that I’ve probably got $600 in minus my time and a Rem. 700 tactical that I’ve got three times that muck into. Neither one is “pretty†in the sense of a “fine custom rifle†but one will shoot sub MOA for the first three and the other will do it all day long. Form follows function for me.

Wstrnhuntr,
I guess it kind of says it. I did like your middle three reasons, but prestige and submoa are not requirements or goals of mine. I can kill game with guns that shoot over 1". I am more concerened about my total accuracy. The square root of the sum of the squares answer.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

(originally posted by Savage 99 on the hunting forum)

I couldn't get this quote here fast enough.

Chuck

"Man in a coon skin hat with a bic pin wants eleven dollar bills, you only got ten" Bob Dylan.

I think understanding your rig is certainly part of achieving pleasure in the custom one might obtain, as someone else stated. I have just begun my first two custom projects, and the function and mechanical features I like were paramount for me. One will have an aesthetically pleasing (to me) stock as one of the main components, but will be otherwise the same as the other, both to appease my desire of features and function, and excellent accuracy being a base requirement. Accuracy, although I understand is not necessarily inherent, is assumed by me as a minimum for any of my rifles. I don't own a rifle that itself cost under $600, but the two that I have in the $600 range shoot as good as any rifle, precision and reliability. Both of these guns have scopes that cost as much or more than the rifles themselves, if you include the mounts in the scope cost, than more than the rifles. I won't have a gun that won't shoot well.

I desire to (and am expending effort to) learn to be able to do some level of gun work above what I can today, perhaps such as DJ, but might have to purchase some components of it for now, such as a gorgeous stock for a specific rifle. Having said that, all my rifles will hunt at some point, and more than once, and therefore I will have more synthetic stocked rigs as I can't bear to really skank up a rifle I have had stocked with something I think is beautiful, and there aren't many hunts where my rifle would be treated such that they might not get a skank or two. I guess that says that some rifles would be created for slightly different purposes than another for me, but that all my rigs would have certain aspects in common. As far as prestige, I don't care at all, working hard to be able to have various rifles that I like and will do what I want, is prestigious enough for me.

To me custom by definition means unique. A true custom rifle IMO is more than the sum of the parts. It is a collaboration between an owner and bulder to create something that has soul. It is an application of skill and craftsmanship that results in exactly what the customer wants. I am very fortunate to have one rifle that meets those criteria for me. It has function, it has beauty, and more important it has soul. It gives me an appreciation of true craftsmanship, friendship, and contentment.

Jeff

My rifles have always been "semi cutsom"... ie, I do some of the work myself and job out other aspects I don't have the equipment or technical expertise for (rebarreling). For me, a custom or semi-custom rifle is about having a rifle as YOU envision it (vs. a factory's idea) as well as improving the various aspect's of functionability.

Here's my latest, though it's a REALLY bad picture... the African Walnut stock is actually a rich coffee-brown with black speckles (not pink!):




This is a stock SS Model 70 Featherweight in 30-06 I got in nearly un-used condition at a local pawn shop for $375... I sold the walnut stock for $100 so am in the basic rifle for $275!

I refashioned the bottom metal with a file to make it more svelt an had Dave Gentry bead blast it. Also had Dave cut the barrel to 21" and install an NECG "Classic" rear base and Ashley front sight. I tuned the trigger to 2.75 lbs and switched out the factory extractor with a machined extractor from Williams. I oredered a Bansner blank, installed a 3/4" Pachmeyer Decelerator, bedded and prepped the whole thing (barel is floated) and had Bansner's paint it. I mounted 2x7 VXII in lapped Burris Zee's clamped to Leupold all-steel Weaver-style bases epoxied to the receiver.

This rig is hell for stout and shoot's nearly anything into sub-moa group's and weigh's 8 lb's 1 oz with sling and five rounds in the belly.

I have $1200 in it complete with all work, parts, scope, etc. So far it has accounted for two bull elk, a black bear, an antelope and a couple of deer.

It's MY IDEA of an "all around" utility rifle...

My only real custom so far was born out of availability or lack of it. I'm a lefty and I always wanted a short action left handed bolt action in 358win. You pay through the nose for a short action Model 700 so I was looking for an alternative. Then about two years ago I came across the charter issue of Montana actions. I ordered one of their chrome moly short actions and began the process. When the action was done I had the lugs and raceways polished a #4 22" barrel installed square to the receiver, had the barrel lapped and a recess crown cut. The whole thing was then matte blued. I had Serengeti make me one of their laminated stocks using a AA Claro blank, put a 1" pad on it for a 14.5" lop,metal grip cap, ebony forearm, handcheckered, oil finish and glass bedded. Because of my timing I ended up with getting a deal on both the action and stock. When everything was done I put a new Leupold VX-III 2.5-8X on it.
Now without the scope I had less than $2000 in the rifle and stock, much less than a rifle from the win. or rem custom shop and I feel a much better one. And on top of all this the darn things shoots.
I think everyone at some point in their life needs a rifle made just for them. I wish I could have done it sooner but at age 60 I still have some years left to enjoy it.
three shots then scope adjustment, 7 shots load and fire

I needed a custom to get a left handed 358win. that fit me and looked good.

As a youngster I wanted really nice guns.....and I couldn't afford them so I endeavored to make them myself.....and failed some badly and threw them away or traded them until I could make something I liked.

My guns today aren't at all the best in the world.....but they almost make my standards and I just keep raising the standards. I still cant afford them so I make them. It has nothing to do with others.....nothing to do with status, nothing to do with anything but an expression of my appreciation of the gun making arts.
Here's a sako L461 with a winchester take off barrel and a claro stock that I got in Warsaw many years ago:

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Originally posted by Skibum:
To me custom by definition means unique. A true custom rifle IMO is more than the sum of the parts. It is a collaboration between an owner and bulder to create something that has soul.
Jeff

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Wow! That was almost poetic. If I could I would replace the "prestige" category with "soul" but I think its a bit late for that now. Well said.