A mate of mine has several Rem 700s set up with Number 5 barrels and Jewell triggers plus a couple with Heavy Varmint taper. Calibres are 264 and 257 Wby without Wby feebore. All are very accurate. So far so good

However, four of the rifles can't be used with mounts such as Leupold Dual Dovetails or other mounts such as the cross slot mounts. His problem is increased because he uses S&B scopes which are a bit short on adjustment. On Dual Dovetails I normally grind out one side of the rings which lets me swing the scope across and then bed the rings in Devcon Titanium. But with cross slot mounts not such a good idea since the front rings can't swivel.

What do you think of the idea of having the recoil lug ground so that it tapers a few thou. Could this be done. It would be easy enough to calculate how much taper was required to get the barrel pointed where a centred scope points.

Mike

Mike375,

Read your post three times, and cannot for the life of me figure what his problem is? Must be a slow day for me.

Anyway, have you considered Leupold QR mounts? Not the QRW mounts that use the weaver crossslots, but the single post variety, with small levers. They are made in both one piece and two piece mounts, from extra low to extra high, including offset (extended rings).

If you cannot get them down under, I would be happy to buy and ship them to you or him. We are talking about $70. US a set.

Regards,

Bob

Is this a application for a one piece base? That way one end or the other could be shimmed.

Bob,

His rifles need mounts with windage adjustment such as the Leupold Standard bases and rings. However he much prefers the more rigid Dual Dovetail or cross slot type mount but such mounts can't be used because virtually the whole windage adjustment is the scopes have to be used up.

Mike

Mike375---

What is the problem?? Are the scope mount holes off or is the action crooked?

It's ALWAYS best to fix the underlying failure than to add another mistake to the assembly.

I can see that if the barrel threads are out of whack with the action that it'll take new barrels to fix it, but the gunsmith that installed the barrels should have seen the problem and quoted what it'd take to fix it *before* fitting them.

My *opinion* of course.

Burris Signature Rings have offset inserts that allow you to correct for the problem.....the cross slot variety are called Signature Zee Rings and will fit weaver type bases.



Click the link to see more details:
signature rings

[ 05-04-2003, 06:26: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

JBelk,

He is about to get two more barrels. If the receiver thread is crooked in relation to the action, can a gunsmith fix that without opening up the thread area and rethreading?

GonHuntin

I have never looked at Burris before, they seem to have some answers there. We now have an agent in Australia for the Burris products.

Mike

Arent the Burris Z rings the ones with the plastic insert? I do not believe in any plastic as a formulation to scope bearing surfaces, but do they work? Anyone?

smallfry,

The Sako rings on my Sako Vixen AI 6mm PPC Benchrest single shot have plastic rings in them.

Pyrotek

Hey Mike, I agree with those that say there is something "probably wrong" with the barrel-to-receiver alignment. But, the real question for me would be, is it worth messing with?

If he is going to put new barrels on, one option is to have the Receiver Blueprinted. Then he can use any scope mount he desires - with their various problems.

The Burris "Signature Rings" mentioned above by GonHuntin, are the next generation scope mounts which are available today. Over the years I've tried nearly all the(reasonably priced) scope mount combinations on the market. I've not seen another scope mount as well designed as the Burris Signatures.

If you have a Brownell's catalog, Jewell(same gentleman who makes the Triggers) makes a design similar to the Burris Signatures, except the Eccentric Inserts are metal and they carry a "Jewell" price.

I've got the Burris Signatures on some heavy recoiling, very lightweight rifles, mounted with large heavy scopes and the Signatures work great. The Synthetic Inserts get an outstanding grip on scope tube without maring it. Plus,there is no need to "Lap Rings" since the Inserts float until they self-center within the rings.

Either get a Burris catalog or visit their web site for a much better description than I can give you.

Oh yes, they make them to fit all different styles of "Bases", so you would only need to get the Signature Rings to match your current Bases and a set of the Eccentric Inserts.

[ 05-04-2003, 16:55: Message edited by: Hot Core ]

Mike375---

The very first step is to figure out WHY the scope points to a different place than the barrel.

The first step is to check the bolt hole with the outside of the receiver, then the barrel threads are checked to make sure they're in line with the bolt AND the outside of the action. If either is wrong it has to corrected BEFORE installing the barrel. It'll take oversize threads on the barrel to fit any changes made to the receiver threads.

Plastic insert rings, adjustable bases, and other gimmicks are ONLY selling because the gun companies have less concern about straightness than the average fence builder. It's a shame, a disgrace, and the customers allow it by not raising Hell with them when they screw up.

I'll garon-damn-tee you if the 80% of out of square actions were returned to the offending company for correction, in two years we'd see a TREMENDOUS increase in quality of firearms. The dealers are the ones that're dropping the ball. When a gun is wrong the dealer should insist it be fixed for HIS customer, or discontinue handling that brand.

I've seen four brand new Model 70s in the last month that were TWENTY thousandths or MORE out of square. A four dollar faucett is many times better than THAT!!

Why anyone would spend money on something that wrong is a total mystery to me.

JBelk

The actions are a mixture of thread/receiver and scope mount holes.

The problem with getting the thread enlarged is it will mean dumping a bundle of barrels.

So....what are your thoughts on getting the recoil lugs ground across to maybe a taper of a couple of thou or so.

Mike

Mike~
I'm sure Jack Belk will answer, but my observation is, by grinding the recoil lugs you are forcing an out-of-square situation between barrel and action. That can't be good as the bore is then off the centerline of the receiver. I wouldn't even consider it.

Mike375
Take a look at the EAW mounts. They are avialable from www.newenglandcustomgun.com in the USA.
The front ring has a leveling adjustment and the rear ring has a windage adjustment.
I have used them with excellent results.

If I read your post correctly, the best and least expensive answer is the Burris Signature Rings using the off-set inserts. I had a customer recently bring me a '03 Springfield action that someone had drilled/tapped the front base slightly off-center. Using all windage adjustment on his scope, he was still 8" left of center. I installed the Burris rings and using the +.020/-.020 vertically in the ring brought the scope back over bore line and sighted in using very little windage adjustment in the scope. IMHO, The Very Best Rings on the market-----Period.

Ol' John

PS--Smallfry--they work very well indeed--no more marring of the scope and the insert is self-adjusting in the ring body to a minor extent.

[ 05-04-2003, 23:03: Message edited by: HondoJohn6508 ]

Burris Sig. rings/inserts are the simple answer. Burris says that the inserts hold 50% better than metal on metal, I believe that. I just don't really believe that all of those Rem receivers are that far out of alignment but something is surely wrong. I've "stacked" bases, silver soldering or TIG welding a piece of steel dovetail on top of a set of generic bases. That allows you to introduce some "tilt" (for 1k or extreme longrange) or to angle the parts to get scope/barrel alignment. That is not the best fix but surely easier than surface grinding recoil lugs and KNOWING that the barrel is out of alignment with the receiver. Something fishy about these rifles. I prefer to make a Picatinney type base with the needed modifications but Rem receiver have the two dif. bridge dia. and heights which can be challanging.

HondoJohn6508

Do they have those inserts for the cross slot type detachable mount. If so how do they work without twisting the mount. On Dual Dovetails they sound like an easier and nicer way of doing things than grinding out the inside of a rear Leupold Dovetail and then bedding. However, in that case the front ring of course just rotates a bit in the base.

It is the detachable cross slot type mounts that he wants to use.

Mike

[ 05-05-2003, 07:08: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

The Millet rings provide some windage adjustment for the Weaver style bases.

Mike,

It is the detachable cross slot type mounts that he wants to use

They do have the Weaver/Picatinny crosslot type attachment rings, that's all I use, don't touch the dovetail crap unless it's Rugers type dovetail. They are the Signiture Zee rings.

The extra inserts in the 20 MOA version is Burris part number 626018 if you need that too. Buy two sets of those for up to 40 moa total correction, one set for each ring. The hold too, never have moved on my Ruger 416WBY with no brake either.

No scratches on the scope tubes with those things either. Good luck, he'll love em.

These all been barreled by the same smith?
Sounds like he maybe doing something wrong... consistantly.

Brent,

There is no problem being caused by the gunsmith, the actions were dud to start with. It is just that he has a desire to use the cross slot type mounts and hence the problem is now becoming a problem. I think there is a whole batch of shit Rem 700s that came to Australia a few years. Altrhough there must be a lot around because there isa gunsmith in Australia who has made a career of opening the thread up in Rem 700s.

Do the inserts in the Burris rings "swivel". If they did swivel then moving the scope to one side would cause problems.

Actually I was just taliking to him a while ago and I think he might end up jumping ship and getting Prairie Gun Works M18 actions.

Mike

Mike 375,

I don't quite understand the use of the term "swivel"? Using the max off-set insert of +/- .020 is so minor at the scope I can't tell its there but it sure makes a big difference at 100yds/meters----try it...You will like it!!!

Ol' John

PS Mr Belk is absolutely correct in saying that we should send all these "off center" guns back to the manufacturers.....Its usually the day before hunting season that people show up with this problem and they don't want to wait 3 months to get there gun back...Using the Burris Signature rings gets them into the field--happy hunter usually means repeat business and the manufacturer gets off scott-free (as usual)...

HondoJohn6508

By "swivel" I mean as in when you push the scope to one side at the rear, then the front dovetail will swivel. I just got this email back from Burris.....Mike

As the ring is tightened the inserts will pivot as needed inside the ring. The inside of the rings are cupped to allow for a curved insert to be placed inside. All other mounting procedures are the same.
Thank you,
Burris

If you do not correct the real problem of getting everything straight and if you try to second rate rig it with scope rings with plastic inserts then your shooting out of your focal center plane of the scope and that is a bad situation as the scope will be stressed for holding zero and accruacy is normally effected at the same time. The rings mentioned are intended to keep the scope in its center focal plane, in coordination with the adjustments, not to correct an off center barrel, you will only be putting a little less stress with the rings in question, not fixing it.

When something is broke, I think your much better off to just fix it right and be done with it. I would think the gunsmith that mucked it up would make it right...

Mike,
I understand the thread size he has now on his various bbls he wants to make use of, the Burris rings will take care of any ring misalignment or barrel off axis problem he has all at once.

It's not correcting the initial problem, but merely eliminating it's effect... If the rifle shoots great when your done, how's one to argue with that success?

Some people use bondo on a dent that's unfixable, some replace the whole panel, and some find the fix in between this somewhere.

Think of it like this Mike, you tighten the scope in one Zee ring leaving the other one off, the tube will pivot left and right, up and down and all around. It's basically clamped inside a ball that's iside its socket, only when you clamp it down all the way it don't move at all anymore. You can see how the two rings put together on the tube a few inches apart at any angle will self align in the socket.

The inserts have an offset hole in them if they are labeled anything other than -0-. If one is labled +10, the hole is offset .010" or about 10 MOA on average spacing. If this +10 insert is .010" thicker the other matching half needs to be -10, or .010" thinner or the scope tube will be crushed... not good. This correcting movement can be manipulated on each ring for windage and elevation or just one or the other depending on how the inserts halves offsets are rotated in the socket. You can have any combination of offset, with different inserts in the front ring than the rear or the same, the pair in the "same ring" just must be matched for the clamping reason described above.

For your friends situation, if you needed to correct about 20 inches of windage at 100 yards or about 20 MOA to get the scope adjustments centered again, you would use a +20 and a -20 in one ring and two -0- inserts in the other for a total of 20 MOA correction. You could also use two sets of 10 MOA inserts offset 180 degrees opposite each other to accomplish the same thing. Then with the scopes windage adjustment centered and the rings top half off and all inserts on, rotate the inserts to offset the scope tube the correct amount to bore sight it. The inserts parting lines should be on top and bottom for full value windage correction and on the sides with full value elevation correction, any other position and it will be a combination of windage and elevation.

Hope that ya helps some.

[ 05-06-2003, 12:37: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ]

Brent,

Yes that does help as I now have a clear picture of how the inserts are like a ball and socket until the rings are clamped up.

As to accuracy, I think most people would be amazed at how little difference it makes when the barrel is pointing in another direction to the action, especially with brass that has a couple of thou headspace as in resized or new brass.

My experience has been that with a good match grade barrel of Number 5 contour (for us that is about .72" at muzzle at 26 inches)fitted to an action that is correctly bedded and scope/mounts are OK and with no stress, then in calibres like 243 to 270 you will have a genuine half inch rifle irrespective of whether the barrel is on an out of line of Remington/M70 or fitted to a Stolle, Nesika or "fixed" Remington.

Of course the journey from a genuine .5" down to .3" and below becomes different

Thanks for your responses.

Mike