.......a live center, or live center holder, to fit a standard morse-taper tailstock, that can be moved "OFF" center with a quality built-in micrometer reading?

Object would be to create equivalence of moving the tailstock off center, yet have it really easy to move it back to absolute center.

Would make it really nice for doing barrel tapers, making tapered rods, etc.

I have never seen a commercial one but have seen one made from a boring head for a milling machine. A center was fitted where the boring bar went and offset set with the dial. I have no idea how well it worked

I made one by getting a boring head, morse taper, and live center and making one myself. Got the idea on this board.

Then about a week after I finished, while still basking in the glow of how much of a genius I am, another MN AR board member PM'd me. I quickly lost my glow. He politely reminded me that a Morse taper is designd to take a linear force along its centerline, and what I just made pruduces a large lateral force. Lateral forces make Morse Tapers come out of their hole.

I will say this, he was much nicer than I would have beeen.

I have to drastically alter the profile on 3 barrels when I am recovered from this recent severe surgery. I am going to try the new center I made on the first one just to see if it works. I am planning on having to move my center, which will produce a lot of profanity, tears, and just generally feeling sorry for myself.

I can take a picture of it tomorrow if you like. Or even better, if you need a #3 MT tool, I will ship you mine for you to try if you like. PM me if interested

Marc, thanks for the generous offer. Maybe instead I could interest you in building me one (for a price of course)? I'd build my own but no longer have a working mill at the moment.

To be honest, if the Morse tapered shaft still goes into a morse tapered hole, I don't think it will come loose at all. At least not with a live center. Live centers are, after all, partly designed to absorb out of line forces, just like live reamer holders, which have Morse taper bases and don't often come loose either.

All I envision as being ncessary is having a piece of shafting that is still round, but grooved to fit into the tailstock in place of the current piece.

Then, another similar piece of shafting with a male dovetailed joint that can be micrometer driven to one side is afixed to the end of the first piece, with a morse-tapered hole in its end closest to the headstock. Thus there is NO sideways loading on the morse taper joint, just on the flat dovetail joint surfaces, and they are almost perpendicular to the force.

Does that sound like something that would work and you would be willing to make?


Rolland -
Thanks for your comment. At least makes me think I am not totally nutso with this question...

I know a fellow here that's been using a boring head with live center in his tailstock for probably 30 years without a problem. I doubt you'll need to put enough force on it to cause significant latteral stress.

I've though about making one but I don't have much trouble just offsetting the tailstock and returning it to center when I'm done.

Either one works.

would a tapper attachment work?
The one I am thinking about mounts on the inside way and moves the cross slide tool holder.
Dave

With a good follower rest.

quote:

Lateral forces make Morse Tapers come out of their hole.

Moving the tail stock off center produces the same lateral force. Make sure your tapers are clean and dry. The longitudinal force of the center keeps it seated in the tail stock ram. The only time I have ever seen anything come out of a clean Morse taper is a drill breaking through when there is lost motion in the quill of a drill press.

The Machinery Handbook and my old machine tool text describe Morse tapers as self releasing, but they don't say how much force it takes to release the hold. I have been told most machine tools are worked at a fraction of their capacity. At that performance level, about anything will work. Proper cutting tool geometry, proper cutter centering, and rigid set up become important if you are setting up for production or want maximum precision.

Cutting a taper from ~1.1" to ~0.6" means just .25" off set in two steps over the length of a barrel. One might guess this should not put much stress on most set ups.

I was skeptical when this idea was discussed here, so I dug up an old Flynn boring head for 1/2" bars, turned and hardened a dead center to fit, and put it in the tail stock. Because of my doubts, I put a 1/2 inch bar in the horizontal port of the boring head, extended it back over the flat way on the back of the lathe, and supported that with a block and screw jack to the ways. I leveled that bar and I support it so the boring head will not turn.

I know "no one" uses a dead center anymore, and I had planned to make up a 1/2 inch stub for a rolling center, but the dead center seems to work fine for me.

Guess what, the set up works just fine, even with some pretty heavy cuts, and it sure is faster and easier to take down than a tail offset.


Maybe I am not too old to learn

Mea Culpa


Roger

How can it come loose? Pressure from the barrel tends to push it deeper into the taper socket and due to heat the barrel lengthens slightly pushing it even tighter into the tailstock socket. Just make sure the tapers are clean and dry. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
.......a live center, or live center holder, to fit a standard morse-taper tailstock, that can be moved "OFF" center with a quality built-in micrometer reading?

Object would be to create equivalence of moving the tailstock off center, yet have it really easy to move it back to absolute center.

Would make it really nice for doing barrel tapers, making tapered rods, etc.

I believe it was Atlas that made one which clamped onto the outside of the tailstock quill. It did not have a micrometer adjustment but did have a vernier scale. One could verify the amount of offset with a depth mike. I think Ron Smith still uses a similar attachment. I used one for quite a while and it worked fine. A bit easier than offsetting the tailstock and re-aligning. Regards, Bill

Hivelosity-

The problem with a taper attachment is that most of them I have seen are too short for anything other than maybe pistol barrels. Sure, with a taper attachment commonly found a person can, with great care, re-centering, re-setting the attachment, etc., do part of the barrel, then slide it into the headstock farther, then do some more barrel, etc., but that ain't hardly what I am willing to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
I believe it was Atlas that made one which clamped onto the outside of the tailstock quill. It did not have a micrometer adjustment but did have a vernier scale. One could verify the amount of offset with a depth mike. I think Ron Smith still uses a similar attachment. I used one for quite a while and it worked fine. A bit easier than offsetting the tailstock and re-aligning. Regards, Bill

Hi Bill - As usual, you are a veritable fountain of good info. I didn't know Ron was using one of those at all. Guess if I ever get back to Alberta for a visit, I'll have to drop by his place. Would like to see his "string" gain-twist setup anyway.

What surprises me, to tell the truth, is that no major manufacturer produces a whole tailstock cross-feed base, so a person could just spin the wheel to get whatever tailstock offset he/she wants. By making the tailstock assembly less high, there would be plenty of room for such a base.......and there are so many potential applications, seems to me like it could even be a standard option sold on request with new lathes.

I made one years ago from a boring head. I mount the barrel using a 60deg center in the headstock and a dog to hold it there and use the boring head in my tailstock. I offset the center in the boring head X amount of degrees and go for it. I do not take really deep cuts but the thing has workd fine for many tears.

Aloha, Mark

I have a picture of Marc's setup that I printed off. It looks to be pretty slick. Of course, as a machinist, I make a pretty good country doctor .

If anyone wants a copy of the picture, please PM me. It will take a couple days....

LD

Quote: "Does anyone make a live center, or live center holder, to fit a standard morse-taper tailstock, that can be moved "OFF" center with a quality built-in micrometer reading?"

In short, Yes they do - or at least someone did... They may no longer be in current production:
Found on Ebay

I also saw one with a #3 MT that went for about 1/3 less. At any rate, they were too rich for my blood. I decide offsetting the tailstock to be a viable alternative. Now if I could get one for under a hundred, my POV might change!

you can make one for ~$50

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
you can make one for ~$50

Thanks to his extaordinairy graciousness, I currently have Marc's off-set tailstock center set up in my lathe. Was going to start using it today, but am going to a memorial service instead.

Marc's unit is exactly what I was seeking, and is a nice concept made into an outstanding one by keeping it simple.

Something I'd like to add, though not on topic:

1. Recently Marc has been posting some of his opinions which may or may not have ruffled some feathers because of their being straight from the shoulder, completely honest, and all too accurate. I for one, agree with pretty much all of them. It is obvious that regardless of whatever his age may be, he has done a lot of thinking and has a lot of experience AND ethics in the shooting arenas of life. He is a No. 1 person in my book. Not a "Bullsitter". Instead, one of the guys whose opinions are definitely worth seeking out for consideration when you need a helpful hand (or thought).

2. Also, thank you Saeed for establishing and maintaining these fora. Though I wouldn't pretend to be able to list all of them, there are a number of others here who really have "seen the elephant" so to speak, and who searchingly looked in the mirror too. I think immediately of Westpac, HotCore, Craigster and about 20 more.

Sure there are those who are dogmatic and who think their opinions are the sum and substance of all human knowledge about guns and shooting. But one can put up with their lack of experience and their arrogance just for the honour of meeting the modest, generous, others who are dedicated to helping all those in our sport by sharing themselves with us.

Best wishes to you all.

BTW, this last week, we lost one of the GOOD people. Wendell Simpson of Idleyld Park, Oregon, was an old-timey gunsmith 'til he passed on about 7 days ago. Wendell began his gunsmithing in a tent on the upper reaches of the North Umpqua River about 40 years ago. As he made a go of it, he built the first permanent structure on his land in the midst of the Umpqua National forest...a very modest purpose-built shop. It was only years later he finally completed an actual house on the property.

Wendell had little in the way of equipment...a small belt operated lathe constituted most of the equipment which wasn't hand powered. But Wendell made up for lack of fancy equipment with hand tools, patience, skill, almost genius level mechanical insight, a strong work ethic, and complete honesty with both himself, his work, and his customers.

Most of all, he treated all his customers with respect and a kindly grin, ALWAYS. In the 17 years I had the honour of knowing him, I NEVER saw him frown, not even when they removed his entire "voice box" area and left a gaping hole in his lower neck for him to breath through, thanks to cancer. And he continued to work, gunsmithing, cutting, hauling and splitting his own winter's wood each year, etc. He also continued using his one rifle that he hunted everything with...from squirrels to elk, a .460 Weatherby.

Over the years he progressed to where if you wanted him to work on an obscure European trigger, make you a clone of a .50-110 M-'86, or build you a benchrest rifle capable of winning matches, he could do it.

One of the other members here has a signature which says that it is every man's duty to love his country and to hate his government. Wendell lived that. He loved his fellow man and detested government, seeing it as the distilled essence of greed, corruption, and rampant egos.

He steadfastly refused to ever even stock 4473's, let alone make his customers fill them out. I used to take my own to his shop so that at least my end complied with ATF requirements. I suspect he used them to light his morning fires with.

Wendell had his own views about what is right, and what is wrong. He would not sell a gun for any price to any man he thought shouldn't have it. On the other hand, if he felt a man did deserve a particular arm, he would not burden the process with bureaucratic B.S. And he charged less than the going rates for most of his work...way less if he knew the buyer was a man who worked with his hands for wages and had a family.

They may not have broken the mould after Wendell was born, but it is getting damned hard these days to find those poured from the same form.

Guess I'll go post this elsewhere too...

Give my regards to the family. Sounds like a man I would like to have known.

Tim