Greetings,

I tried this in Shotgunning but didn't get much response and figure since it involves gunsmithing (changing stocks) you'd be the bunch to give me some good answers.

I have only shot shotguns a couple of times in my life, a couple rounds of trap, a couple of skeet and a couple of 5 stand. I had a great time (other than skeet which was really hard). Now....

I don't own a shotgun, so I borrow my uncles. He has loaned me an 870 and a model 50. the 870 I can do well with BUT
something with the shape of my face, the cheekbone I guess, always causes me problems getting down behind iron sights. with these shotguns I end up with my cheekbone against the comb and just take a serious beating. it was worse on the 870, on the model 50 with only one bead an no full length rib I shot it for crap since I must not have been low enough to have the right sight plane.

Now my uncle has dropped off my grandfather's old Savage 745 as another option. it has a shorter stock and sure enough, I can get down on it easier. It needs a new pad which is not a problem, but it does raise more questions.

If you all could help me with these I would appreciate it (please remember shotguns are totally new to me and I know very little about them)

1. If I wanted to change the buttstock on one of these are there any semi-inlet options out there or is it a custom creation type deal? (a few years ago I was thinking about getting a shotgun and went to local store to handle about a dozen different guns, found I liked the english grip better, if I end up changing anything I will try and get rid of the pistol grips as well)

2. Which of these should I try and focus on using? which is the better gun? (hunting is not happening right now, and we're looking at maybe one outing to shoot every 4-6 weeks, wife just had second baby, plus it ain't cheap).

3. The savage 745, can anybody tell me anything about them, I can't find any information. It is a very ligthweight receiver made out of aluminum I think, I want to know if it is safe to shoot modern loads, and if so only low base? Also, it seems like it has a very heavy spring, I had to give it more a good pull to rack the slide and then when I released it that bad boy really slammed shut hard).

4. As i go forward, in the future, should I get money....what are some good shotguns to keep an eye open for? I don't need new, just well made, reliable, mechanically sound. I love the look of side by sides, any reason not to look for one?

That's it. this was the first time I shot anything in months, got side tracked working on a hotrod with my uncle, but he is leaving for business again and won't be back for months, means I will be able to go back to guns more.

Thanks everybody.

Red

Red

I am just going to tell you my experience becasue it mimmicks yours.

Back when I first started shooting sporting clays I purchased an 11-87 which is the same shape as your 870. I couldn't hit a damn thing with it. Just couldn't get down on it. My clays average (out of 50) was somewhere in the low 30s.

then I purchased a browning citori sporting clays O/U. the stock was lower, and immediately the sporting scores went up into the lower to mid 40s. that is how much of a change the stock made to me. That certainly isn't great shooting as many guys that practice a lot can shoot 48 out of 50. but I know it was just the shape of the stock that changed things for me.

I would suggest going to a sporting clays course and seeing if you can talk a guy or two into letting you shoot different types of shotguns. try a Citori Sporting Clays if you can find one. I know a guy that bought a very very expensive Krieghoff and butchered the hell out of the stock on it, and basically remodeled the whole thing with auto body putty until he felt he was shooting the gun as best he could. then he had that altered stock duplicated.

good luck.

Dago,
You have not shot a shotgun enough to really get a handle on what works.
From what you have mentioned so far I would ask

1. How tall are you and what is you body build, arm and neck length as compared to an average shooter? How fat is your face?

2. What loads have you been shooting? I would advise learning with a 20 gauge that fits.
If you have to shoot a 12 gauge try to use the light skeet loads or 1 oz field loads.

I went through 4 guns in 7 years of pretty active skeet shooting.
1. First a Win Super X1 field grade in modified choke. This gun fit well but I used trap loads at skeet and they have a little more recoil. As a result I would not keep my head down. The gun beat me up a little and the modified choke was too tight. With my head up I shot terrible for several years I averaged about 13 birds per round. An old guy told me that I was not keeping my head down. My scores jumped to about 18. I had begun reloading shotgun and the 1oz loads seem to help a little.
2. I bought a Smith & Wesson Model 3000 20 ga pump with an improved cylinder barrel. This gun looks like an 870 clone. I read the skeet shooting book by D.Lee Braun. My scores jumped to about 20.
3. I felt the pumping part was detracting some from my scores and I found another discontinued 20 ga this time a Smith & Wesson Model 1000 Auto Skeet gun with skeet choke. With this gun and Win AA loads my scores creeped up to around 22 or so.
4. I ran into another good deal on a discontinued Smith & Wesson Model 3000 Pump in 12 ga with interchangable tubes 28" barrel. I used it with the improved cylinder tube and my scores hovered around 22 to 23. I found a Win Choke tube at a gun show marked modifed. However in the Japanese S&W barrel it was oversize producing no choke. Basically it was nothing but a thread protector.
I broke 25 with this combo several times.

In the mean time I found an improved cylinder barrel for the Super X1. With this heavy gun and the open choke with 1 1/8 skeet loads my scores were usually 23 or 24. I broke 45 straight once.
I later found a 26" improved cylinder barrel that had been ported for the S&W 12 ga pump and found it easy to shoot good scores with.

That is 4 shotguns and 2 extra barrels and one extra choke tube. I also bought 12 and 20 ga reloaders. I probably shot up 10,000 shotgun shells (about 20 cases)
I altered only one of the shotguns. The 20 ga skeet gun had a slick plastic butt plate and I had a recoil pad installed.
A factory gun fits me ok but I would probably shoot better if the butt was .25 longer.

In the end the gun I shot the best was the one I started with but with a different choke and a shorter 26" barrel.

Several things stand out in the process of learning for me
1. You must have the right choke for skeet- you need a pattern about 4 feet wide at 22 yards.
2. I read D Lee Braun's book and learned some good technique and lost some really bad habits
3. With some success I shot more, improved my concentration and muscle memory. A lot of the shooting became automatic.
4. After shooting thousands of round I noticed that my forearms will unconsciously tense at the instant of the shot and absorb a lot of the recoil. I do not have a problem with the stock beating up my face like it once did though I still use the same gun and loads. I think the arm tensing is something that developed over several years of shooting without any thought on my part.

well! as everyone who is anyone knows there are only two types of scatterguns, the ones with 2 barrels and all the others

I would have to get the measurements when I get home, I don't have particulary long arms. I am 6' and 275lbs., big guy. my face isn't really fat, it is the cheekbone that is a problem. I shouldered one of D'Arcy Echols rifles at SCI a couple of years ago and he saw right away and told me that I needed a stock with more drop in the comb because of my face.

On my rifles I have to use medium to high rings and if I use iron sights I have to get the tallest blades I can find.

both the 870 and the model 50 have adjustable chokes (the 50 has a built in you twist and the 870 you screw them in), what is best to start with then? full, mod, imp.?

22wrf, I will do that. I know that the last time I was out there a guy saw how bad I was shooting and let me shoot a round with his beretta o/u and I shot much better. I handled a Weatherby Orion with a straight stock a few years ago and loved the way it felt and handled. but didn't shoot with it.

the Ruger gold label looks frickin' beautiful, but I don't know how well they are made or shoot.

Red

Red,
What's the gun going to be used for hunting or target shooting?

If you need extra drop at the comb you can do very nicely with an older SxS as most of them have too much drop for your average shooter. You can pick up a nice old Lefever Nitro Special 12 ga for $3-400 and hunt all sorts of feathered stuff. But if you're going to be doing higher volume target shooting you'll probably be better off with a modern gun.

Adding a trick Butt pad , the adjustable type can cure many pains with misalignment. Also can increase or decrease LOP depending on what one might need !. Whole lot less than a new stock !.

I purchased a trick SKB many years ago Sporting Clay's configuration . Found out something interesting after patterning the gun with all types of loads . Fast 9 ,8 ,71/2 left a 14" hole in the upper right quadrant with the upper barrel !. NO PELLETS . Used low base 1150-1200 FPS and it went away !. Go figure that one .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Red,

Unlike a rifle that you crawl into, part of the shotguns ability to hit where you are looking is in how it fits you as it comes up. When the shotgun comes up, it must do so without you having to make any adjustments to find the sight. So whichever gun you decide on, find someone who knows how to make it fit, and let them fit it too you. A Morgan adjustable recoil pad will help the gun melt into your body.

Now, the Rem 870 is probably the most trouble free shotgun going. I have it in the "Express" model and it has literally had the living shit beat out of it. It occupies a spot behind the seat of my truck going everywhere I go. I shoot everything with it including trap.

The Winchester M50 was considered too complex, compared to other designs of the time and never caught on very well. Parts will be somewhat difficult to obtain. IIRC, they were offered with Aluminum and Steel receivers.

The Savage 745 Shotgun is similar to the Browning Auto 5 and Remington 11. It is a "long Recoil" gun meaning it's barrel recoils back into the receiver and kicks the empty out as it moves forward. I've never compared it to the Browning or the Remington so I don't know if any parts are interchangeable. These "Long Recoil" guns can be finiky if not properly maintained. Since it is recoil operated, any light grip on the gun will cause it to misfeed. Too much lube on the mag tube can result in misfeeds as will too dry of a tube. These malfunctions are referred to as "short strokes".

Of these three guns, the 870 would get my vote based soley on availability of parts, accessories and reliability.

Dago Red:

I'm not going into a dissertation on how to shoot a shotgun here, but you need to remember that a shotgun (all references here are for use on flying objects, not turkeys, deer, etc.) is a POINTING weapon, not an AIMING weapon. That is, everything is in motion and you may or may not need to have your head locked DOWN on the stock, however, you do need to have it in the same position each time you shoot, since your eyes are the rear sight, raise your head, shoot over the target, lower it, shoot lower. Most shooters do better with a good firm, but not welded, cheek/stock contact. Usually if you really REALLY cheek a stock hard you will have a red sore or bruised cheek if you shoot very many shots....this varies with individual physiognomy, of course.

Bottom line of all of this is....it is a VERY common shooting mistake of beginners to try to AIM a shotgun instead of pointing it.

In your case, I'd suggest you get an 870 with screw in chokes and a wood stock. If you really can't get "down" on the stock, it is a simple matter and a few minutes work to lower the comb. Go slowly, you can easily take it off, but you can't easily put it back. As far as LOP goes, the modern theory is for longer LOP....they may be right, I prefer a shotgun stock just a fraction longer than it HAS to be to prevent getting my thumb jammed into my nose when shooting the heaviest loads I'll use in that gun.....that normally translates into about 1 3/4 inch from the back your thumb to your nose....BUT the LOP is the same as the comb height, it is a helluva lot easier to make it shorter than to lengthen it IF you are counting a recoil pad (be sure to get a good one, whatever you shoot) in the stock length.
Good way to try a shorter stock is to take the pad off and shoot it with light loads for a few shots (assuming no nose/thumb contact)....if that's too short, but with the pad seems too long, get a thinner pad and try that for a while. DON'T START CUTTING UNTIL YOU ARE SURE ABOUT YOUR REQUIREMENTS. If the stock seems too short with the pad, put some layers of plywood, cardboard, whatever under the pad, screw it back on and see what how it works for you. Hope this helps. Good shooting.

It is very hard to beat an 870. Have one fit to you and you'll have a gun you can rely on forever. I bought mine in 1974 and it was about 20 years old then. Used it for everything from sheet to deer and it's never missed a beat. My Son has it now and shoots trap with it once in while when he wants a break from his Krieghoff.