If a person wanted to have custom bottom metal made for a stainless gun, what would be a good steel to use so as to closely match what Winchester uses for their Model 70 classic stainless guns.

Ask Williams. He posts on AR from time to time.
Some are hesitant to share that sort of info with the competition. Some aren't.

416R stainless.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
416R stainless.
Butch

That is gun barrel stainless.

I just cut the breech off a Krieger stainless bull barrel with a parting tool and a 1/5 horse power 350 pound lathe.

It took about a minute and there was no chatter.

I was as easy as cutting free machining steel 12L14.

The only thing that would have cut easier is wood or plastic.

quote:

Parting is the operation of cutting off material after it has been machined, Fig 10-120. This is one of the more difficult jobs performed on the lathe. - John R. Walker "Machining Fundamentals"

So yea, 416R is easy.
Often listed as free machining stainless is 303.
In Seattle, round stock of 303 is easier to find that 416R.

17/7-PH
› CONDITION A
› CONDITION C

Type 301
› 1/4 HARD
› 1/2 HARD
› 3/4 HARD
› FULL HARD
› EXTRA HARD

Type 302
› Soft Annealed
› 1/4 HARD
› 1/2 HARD
› 3/4 HARD
› FULL HARD

› Type 304 Annealed

› Type 305

› Type 316

› Type 321

› Type 410 Tempered

› Type 410 Annealed

› Type 420 Annealed

› Type 430 Annealed

SOFT and DUCTILE - Type 302 (18/8 chrome-nickel) Stainless Steel Strip. This is the BASIC and most widely used of all the Chrome-Nickel steels. It is recognized as the best all purpose drawing and forming quality type in this stainless group with mechanical and forming qualities intermediate to Types 301 and 304. Type 302 offers the benefits and avoids the shortcomings of both of these types. Note - Deep Drawing and Extra Deep Drawing qualities are available but only as negotiated to meet special requirements. Type 302 applications are wide and various including formed products, drawn parts, flexible metal hose, household appliances, certain spinning operations, tubing and countless other stainless fabricated parts.

TYPE 302 CHARACTERISTICS
TYPE 302 (18/8 chrome-nickel) Austenitic. This type differs but little from its companion Alloy Type 301. However, the slight increase in Chromium and Nickel contents in Type 302 over 301 develops marked changes in its mechanical properties and in its forming behavior. Type 302 work hardens much less rapidly than does Type 301 but with strength and toughness second only to 301. It possesses excellent heat and corrosion resistance and welds easily. To solution anneal, cool rapidly in air or water from about 2000° F. It is not heat treatable for hardening purposes and is slightly magnetic following cold working. We stock Type 302 in five different tempers - Soft to Full Hard inclusive. Note - We do not guarantee mechanical properties on Type 302 tempers. We do for Type 301.



A new soft stainless steel sheet has an austenite-stability index Md30 controlled in a range of −120 to −10 and a stacking fault formability index SFI controlled not less than 30, and involves precipitates whose Cu concentration is controlled not more than 1.0%, so as to maintain concentration of dissolved Cu at 1-5%. The stainless steel sheet preferably contains up to 0.06%(C+N), up to 2.0% Si, up to 5% Mn, 15-20% Cr, 5-9% Ni, 1.0-4.0% Cu, up to 0.003% Al, up to 0.005% S, and optionally one or more of up to 0.5% Ti, up to 0.5% Nb, up to 0.5% Zr, up to 0.5% V, up to 3.0% Mo, up to 0.03% B, up to 0.02% REM (rare earth metals) and up to 0.03% Ca. The stainless steel sheet can be plastically deformed to an objective shape without any cracks even at a part heavily-worked part by multi-stage deep drawing or compression deforming.

Md30(° C.)=551−462(C+N)−9.2Si−8.1Mn−29(Ni+Cu)−13.7Cr−18.5Mo

SFI(mJ/m2)=2.2Ni+6Cu−1.1Cr−13Si−1.2Mn+32.

I would say $25-$50.
Butch

I believe 410 and 416 are not truly Stainless until hardened. Knife guys use it for bolster and guards.


300 series

400 series

richj,
The are considered stainless regardless of heat treat.
Butch

303 is a free cutting version of 304.
The price is in the $4 to $5/lb range plus a cutting fee. All steels weigh about .1 lb per cubic inch.

The free cutting versions of stainless steels often have sulfur add to enhance the machinability. When you look at the material under magnification it looks like the surface of pig skins due to the sulfur inclusions. The free cutting versions especially 416 are less corrosion resistant. I have seen shafting made of 416 rust in the stock room.
To keep stainless parts from rusting after machining they should be passivated which is a simple process.

You can buy small quantities of metals on line just expect to pay a premium.

Shop around at onlinemetals.com, McMaster-Carr at mcmaster.com and others. There are a host of others. PM me if you would like me to dig them up.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If a person wanted to have a custom bottom metal made for a stainless gun, what would be a good steel to use, so to closely match what Winchester used for their Model 70 classic stainless guns.

YOUR FACE

Sorry meant little "s"

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
richj,
The are considered stainless regardless of heat treat.
Butch

["Ask Williams. He posts on AR from time to time."]

Went to his site. Doesn't look like he is doing much during this recession.


One more question.

Would this stainless steel be, for lack of a better term, "harder" on the tooling than normal leaded steel. Or would it require completely different tooling than that used when working with regular leaded steel.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
["Ask Williams. He posts on AR from time to time."]

Went to his site. Doesn't look like he is doing much during this recession.


One more question.

Would this stainless steel be, for lack of a better term, "harder" on the tooling than normal leaded steel. Or would it require completely different tooling than that used when working with regular leaded steel.

The tooling would be basically the same but the speeds eg RPM would be lower.
Most production shops will run solid carbide tooling on steels. The free cutting stainless steels would run about 75% of the speed of a carbon steel and an austenitic like 304 would be 25% of carbon steel.

Um, working stainless is more difficult than soft leaded steel. Soft leaded steel cuts like butter with highspeed steel cutters, carbon steel cutters, whatever you got. easy cutting is the only reason for the existence of leades steels. Cutting ease is codified. (without looking it up) 1018 is 100, being the standsrd, 12L14 is maybe 120 because of the lead, and most stainless is way down there, maybe 30-40? Tool life, power requirements, feed speed are heavily effected by the natre of the material. For one part, using carbide and a good machine, the difference might be negligible, but in production it is a major consideration.

I made 3 of my M-98 actions actions in stainless
recently.
I made the bottom metal out of 303 stainless.
The 303 cut really nice on my machining center.
Like any material it's more about your method of attack and knowing what you can get away with for feeds and speeds. I get pretty aggressive with a Seco Carboloy 5 insert octomill it has aggressive geometry. Running at 500 sfm with a chipload of .002 per tooth per rev 1/8th inch cuts gets the part roughed out quickly. solid carbs and coated drills for the rest one HSS woodruff for the lever cut. The 303 broached well too, There is some light broaching on a Mauser box. All in, I'm still 80 minutes on a Mauser box thats broached and ready for a floorplate.

I have no doubt I could make the same part on my knee mill. It would just take more time.
Cutting the draft gets more tricky on a two axis also. This is where 3 axis shines.
Timan

From my knifemaking experiences, 303 is very easy to work with, and 304 is a bastard.
416 is also easy for me to make guards and bolsters from, along with 303.

Never get Old you don't have enough fingers or toes to count on !. 303 is HERE !.

Stainless Steel - Grade 303
Chemical Formula

Fe, <0.15% C, 17-19% Cr, 8-10% Ni, <2% Mn, <1% Si, <0.2% P, >0.15%S


Grade 303 represents the optimum in machinability among the austenitic stainless steels. It is primarily used when production involves extensive machining in automatic screw machines. Machinability Rating (compared to B1212) is approximately 78%.

303 is also available as a "Ugima" Improved Machinability grade, with machinability even higher than that of the standard 303.

The sulphur addition which is responsible for the improved machining and galling characteristics of Grade 303 lowers its corrosion resistance to below that of Grade 304. As for other austenitic grades the structure gives 303 excellent toughness, although the sulphur in 303 reduces its toughness slightly.

Grade 303Se (UNS S30323) has a selenium rather than sulphur addition, improving the hot and cold forming characteristics over those of 303 and providing a smoother machined surface finish. The machinability rate is also slightly reduced. Grade 303Se is not readily available in Australia.
Key Properties

These properties are specified for long product (bar) in ASTM A582. Similar but not necessarily identical properties are specified for other products such as wire and forgings in their respective specifications. Grade 303 is not produced in flat rolled products.

WHY I DIDN'T INCLUDE IT !!.

As well as reducing the corrosion resistance, the sulphur additions in 303 also result in poor weldability and reduced formability compared to Grade 304. Sharp bends should not be attempted in 303. A practical compromise alternative may be a 304 Ugima Improved Machinability grade - this does not machine as readily as 303, but does offer better formability (as well as better weldability and corrosion resistance).

Heat Treatment

Solution Treatment (Annealing) - Heat to 1010-1120°C and cool rapidly. This grade cannot be hardened by thermal treatment.

Welding

Not generally recommended but, if unavoidable and a lower strength can be tolerated, use Grade 308L or 309 electrodes. AS 1554.6 does not pre-qualify welding of 303. Welds must be annealed for maximum corrosion resistance.

A Mechanical Engineer friend of mine has told me on several occasions 303 is SHIT don't use that

crap use the good stuff !. His words not mine as I'm not in that field of expertise !.

40 years of association with him has taught me one thing , in matters of metallurgy LISTEN TOO HIM !.

I've never known him to build something he designed specified materials for that failed !.

Failure is a sloppy excuse for inept planning and cost cutting greedy lazy suits !.

Then when it fails and kills somebody they blame and sue you , not the lazy ass suit !.

Words to consider before producing products for a market !. Or you could have China build your crap

and sell it at Wally World , they've got DEEP POCKETS lined with your money !!!!!.

22wrf,
Looks as 303 or 416 will do fine as bottom metal. You shouldn't have to weld it, so I see no other reason for any other.
Butch

Can 416 be obtained in the sizes needed?

Roger,
I'll bet it wouldn't be a problem. It is made for other than barrels. I have a limited amount of it in bar stock and 1200-1500lbs of 303.
Butch

Because of the applications of 416 and 303 they are available as bar stock only. For your purpose I would contact some contract machine shops and ask if they have any left over drop off pieces with the certs still taped to the material. It is common practice to find shops with tons of small pieces left over. They should be glad to get rid of some of their hoard.

Bar, or round. It takes a pretty good chunk of rectangular stock to make a 98 TG assembly. I've not seen 416 in anything bigger than knife bolster size...o'course that doesn't mean it's not made.

I have been told that the Winchester receivers are made of 416. Could that be correct? If so, is there an argument that a custom bottom metal should also be made of 416 instead of 303.

(taking a look at a regular bottom metal for a Win. Classic, it looks as though a bottom metal could be made from 1.25 x 3 flat bar)

Jerry Stiller makes his Predator receivers from heat treated 416. You could do a search and I bet it is easy to find.
Butch

Do a search on 416 stainless and you will get several hits.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Scrollcutter:
Bar, or round. It takes a pretty good chunk of rectangular stock to make a 98 TG assembly. I've not seen 416 in anything bigger than knife bolster size...o'course that doesn't mean it's not made.

416 to 4" round is common.

It was a sad day when I found out that some of those really interesting alloys listed in the Machinery's handbook or on a metal dealer's website, are only available in special order 50,000# batches.

Not only machine shops but you can try steel fab shops. We make a ton of stuff out of 304 and 316 such as pipe shoes, reinforcing pads, etc...and have lots of drops.

Depends on where you live. If you can find a fab shop that services the petro-chemical/refinery industries you can get drops in almost anything for next to nothing. Same for the fab shops in the area.

We have a 60" vertical lathe for turning flanges for pipes and manways and always have a ton of drops that go for pennies on the pound to the scrapyard.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by papapaul:
It was a sad day when I found out that some of those really interesting alloys listed in the Machinery's handbook or on a metal dealer's website, are only available in special order 50,000# batches.

After calling around I am finding it difficult to find any stainless steel in the size needed.

Copper and Brass will have a lot of inventory but you might not like paying for the material from a distributor. Copper and Brass serves the semiconductor industry which uses a lot of stainless steels.
With larger sizes of rectangular bar do not expect to find exactly what you want. You will probably find an oversize piece and have to cut it down.
304 is much easier to find than 303 or 416 in large chunks but it is much slower to machine.

I wouldn't even mess with trying to get it from a supply house/dealer because they normally don't want to waste time on such a small buy when they could be selling a few coils or a truckload.

Try places that are a machine shop/fab shop in the yellow pages that also say "supply" and you can get a drop, not just a supply place.

You should be able to find a piece of plate thick enough as a drop depending on how the fab/machine shop business is in your part of the world.

I don't machine. I run the fabrication side of a fab/machine shop side.

I do the ordering however and sell the scrap so I know what we wind up with.

We don't do anything you would call really fine machine work. We take steel plates and or steel off of a coil and machine it on a vertical lathe to make flanges up to 60" in diameter. Not exactly detail work and our tolerances are like "make it 1/2" thick" not in 0.001's.

I don't work there anymore either or I would ask the guy in charge of that side of the shop.