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Hello all, I have two Mauser 98's to do something with,and am trying to figure out which would be best suited for the intended purpose. I plan to build 2 rifles from these actions,one being a 35 Whelen AI,and the other being something i haven't decided on yet.Suggestions? The actions in question are a 1917 Oberndorf,and a 1911 Amberg. My first project is to be the Whelen,which will be a dedicated Elk rifle,and the other is still up in the air. Which one of these would be the likely candidate? I do not want to change the bolt face. I am refering to strength,or possible heat treating problems,handeling the pressure,etc. A few details on both,the Amberg has a bent bolt,drilled and tapped for scope,the Orbendorf is original as far as the metal is concerned. The Amberg has seen some sort of half asssed attempt at sportorizing (not by me). The Oberndorf is original all matching minus the stock,but very clean. Both are long actions,8mm Mauser caliber. These will be projects in the long term,as i am going to try and do most of the work myself as time and finances allow. These will be working rifles,not show pieces. I need dependability over looks. I am looking for advice on any pitfalls,what to look for inregards to potential problems. The Whelen will have a Pac-Nor barrel,but what lenghth should i consider. I want only BIG bullets,what twist do i need? The trigger will probably be the original after looking at BearClaws pics and conversion. BearClaw,do you do these seperate for folks? The stock will be wood,but do not know what style yet. I want open sites,along with a mounted 4X scope. Can i expect a rifle around 8 lbs when done? This will be the second rifle i have built,but my first from scratch so to speak. The first was a '06 for my 14 yr old,cost a total of $74.00 and made from x-tra pieces i had laying around.(98 mauser also )Learned alot on this one. I am open to suggestions on components,i know what i want the rifle to be for,just am not sure as to what all is out there and available for it. I have a new Brownells catalog. This one is a semi budget job,expecting to cost around a 1K when done,the second will be a different story. If anyone is confused,thats okay,so am i. This is why i am asking the collective group what i should expect . I am sure there is details i have overlooked,i will try to answer questions as they come up. Thanks, Z Gresham,Oregon | ||
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I would throw it out there that the 257 roberts (ai?) is the perfect match for your specs and for the whelen... the .257 will take right up to where the 35 starts. On the 35, i've gotten a 1x10 that really shoots barnes well, but I never shoot them, as I just use sierra game kings all the time, in 358 winnie. make sure the throat is .100 longer than stock, if you plan on shooting heavy for cal in the 35 or barnes. btw, i've never gotten barnes to shoot for shit in my 257 roberts... the gun is a 3/8 gun with sierra game kings, and neary 2" with barnes.. I think I wasted 3 boxes before I said f* it. jeffe | |||
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Z You did not mention what other caliber rifles you have, but a Mauser 35 Whelen and a Mauser 270WCF would be about the best pair of classic rifles a hunter could have. I would make the 270 light with a 22 inch bbl. The 35 should be a little heavier but still 22 inches. | |||
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Yes i forgot to include what i already have,so here goes. My smallest centerfire is a 6.5X257 Roberts,then we go to the .280Rem,a 30-30,a 30-06,several 8MM Mausers, a 30X8MM Mag. My 30X8MM Mag is setup to shoot 1000yds or Elk, but weighs more than i care to carry anymore,my .280 is for Deer,Sheep,or any medium game,The 6.5X257 Roberts is a customized type 38 that i do not shoot much, bought it as a possible Varmint rifle,maybe for sale soon,and the 30-30 was my 1st centerfire rifle and sits in the safe,unless i want to teach my boys how to shoot with open sites. I don't care for the 30-06,but have one like most folks,as there are too many other cartridges that do as well,only more accurately. I am looking for a mid-range big bore in the Whelen, 200 yds at most.And possibly building a small bore out of the left over action,a long range round would be nice. My main love is the little .22 rimfire,but they don't allow those for huntin' big game. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Thanks, Z I am also a handloader,and really enjoy WildCat rounds if anyone has any concerns. <Snip< [QUOTE]Originally posted by N E 450 No2: [QB]Z You did not mention what other caliber rifles you have. [ 12-25-2002, 10:22: Message edited by: Z ] | |||
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Jeffeosso, I have thought about a .257 AI,but i have concerns about building one on a long action. Feeding,magazine problems,etc. Any comments on this? I have considered putting a 28" Octagon Barrel on one,along with some other ideas i have. Maybe a retro look,so to speak. This would be a range rifle only,just because i do not have one This is what i keep telling my wife when she ask's why i want a particular gun. I am looking at hunting rifles now,i have a few other actions put away for some other projects. I plan on using either Nosler,or Sierra bullets. I live in the land of Nosler,and i have had good luck with Sierra's in other rifles where accuracy is concerned. Your comment about throat lenghth is appreciated,as this is the info i am looking for on the Whelen project. Barnes have not worked for me in any rifle i have owned,do not know why. If i cannot get a hunting rifle to group 1" or better at 200 yards after load developement,it doesn't stay around long. Target rifles are held to much higher standards,as i cannot tolerate second best and strive for the best of both,myself and the gun. Thanks, Z quote: | |||
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What no 22 centerfires??? ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} Maybe you need a 22/250 or a 220 Swift. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Don't ya'll Oregonians got no varmits? ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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N E 450 No2, Ya'll in Texas may call 'em Varmints,us here in Orygun call 'em POLITICANS I do hunt 'yotes,but like to use my Deer rifle(.280) just to keep in practice in the off season. Actually,i am considering a Savage Rifle in the near future,just for Varmints,but got 2 boys who shoot JR.Smallbore and those rifles don't come cheep. My goal is to have all my rifles dedicated to a particular load,and specific species. Z quote: | |||
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Z Well try this one. I have suggested this one before to Mauser shooters. Would be good for large game up close, especially Bear, Elk and Moose. It will fit into a standard 8mm Mauser action without extensive gunsmithing. It shoots a .423dia.[same size as 404 Jeffery] 347 gr. bullet at 2200+ fps. The cartridge is the 10.75x68 Mauser. All the power you need in a North American Big Bore without Elephant Gun recoil. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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N E 450 No2, I like the sound of this. Tell me more. Dies,Brass, reamers,availability? Don't have to change the bolt face? What about feeding issues? Recoil ,i am not sensitive, but my 14 yr old son likes to shoot what ever i take to the range. He's a little fella,5'10 and about 160+ lbs Actually he shoots all my guns, and between him and my youngest they fight about who gets what when i depart to "that great range in the sky" and i don't want them being dissapointed about what i leave 'em. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} This sounds like it could be a fun round to experiment with,and would almost round out my meager collection. Seriously,i am intrigued with this. Thanks, Z quote: | |||
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Z 10.75Mauser's Type A Sporters usually weighed about 8lbs with a 23.5 inch bbl. The rim Diameter is listed as .488 in Cartridges of the World. 8mm rim dia is usually .473 which might require a little work, might not depending on your bolt. Factory loads have been [and might still be] produced by RWS and DWM, also in the past by Kynoch and in Czech. Bullets of the correct weight [347gr.] are avialable form Woodleigh. I am sure you could get some form Hawk,[the diameter is .423 same as 404 Jeffery. Bertram makes the brass and I think Huntingtons and possibly Midway has it. I do not know who has a reamer, that might have to be a custom order. Type in 10.75X68 into the search area on your computer and some sites will come up. The nice thing about this calibre is you have a handy [@8lb] rifle with plenty of power for all game short of the big 5 in a handy hunting rifle with quite a bit of charisma. I use 300gr. bullets in my 450/400 at 2330fps for deer and wild pigs and it works real good. With 50gr more weight better SD and about the same velocity you cannot go wrong. Sort of a Mauser 400 Whelen without the headspace problems. | |||
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I'm currently having a smith turn a nice FN 98 into a Whelen. I was considering the AI but didn't see enough improvement to warrant the extra pressure. We are going with a 22" Shilen barrel with a 1-14" twist, as I will primarily be shooting 250 gr. Get much heavier than that and 1-12" would work better. | |||
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quote:Z, actually, those actions made for the 257 length round... 7x57, and 8x57... and mine is of a springfield... the longer allowable oal only help with the 257, as the "normal" and WRONG thing is to have them on short or std actions, with a 2.8 or so oal... would love to see one in an oct barrel!! mine shoots 3/8" with just about anything other than barnes. jeffe | |||
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Lets add it all up. Value of 8MM Mauser as is $250................. Cost of new barrel installed $400................. Weld on new bolt $ 75................ Drill and tap $ 60................ Cheap Plastic Stock $150................ Bluing $100................ Safety and install $ 75................ Misc, swivels etc. $ 25................ Total $1135............... Value of "custom Mauser" $350............... Net Loss ($785).............. An alternative. New M70 in whatever caliber $600................. Value of used M70 $350................ Net Loss ($250)............... Another. Old M70 in 300 H&H $800................ Value of used M70 $800................ Net Loss None Which would you rather have? | |||
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Z, Sounds like a couple of fun projects! Also consider a 25-06 for the second rifle. Also, in addition to Brownells get the midway gunsmithing catalog, it is free at www.midwayusa.com . Regarding barrels, are you going to get pac-nors prefit barrel and do the work yourself? That will save you the cost of reamer rental and also (hopefully) ensure concentricity to the bore. I am a fan of longer barrels, the extra couple of inches never bothered me. Good luck and have fun, it sounds like you will. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
Z-- You didn't say whether the actions are large or small rings. Both are large thread, but what's the diameter of the front ring? Small ring, large thread actions aren't suited for high pressure. If they're large ring actions they should be checked for lug set back....both are case-hardened only and if set back you're facing a lot of work and expense to fix them. | ||
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JBelk, They are both '98 Large Rings. I have seen some postings here about lug set back,but how do i tell or what to look for? Thanks, Savage99, I said i was going to do the work myself. Your price comparisons are therefore invalid. As to having a custom rifle not worth much when through,it will be worth more than money to me and to which one of my sons who inherits it. Thanks to all, Z quote: | |||
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Z This is a quote from Marcus Daly, who hunted for Ivory and zoological specimens from the Sudan to Northern Rhodesia between the years 1897 and 1936. The 9.3 Mauser is a good, medium all-round rifle though after many tests with all dangerous game I found the 10.75 Mauser with 24-inch barrel the better gun. It is generally slightly lighter in weight or much the same and still stops a death charge of any animal, though I have never out of over one hundred elephants shot with this rifle, got a frontal-shot to penetrate right into the brain of a big bull. I never, however, failed with this rifle to drop an elephant with a frontal-shot, even charging through thick stuff, and had plenty of time to step around and put another shot in under the armpits to the heart, which invariably finished it; or to stand aside, allowing it to rise again in position to take the side brain shot; for running shots it is one of the finest rifles I have ever handled. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
Z--- To check for lug set back it's best to lap the recesses and see what contact a flat suface has on it. There is at least one picture of the process HERE Look for picture DSC00032. There's a caption with it.  Here's a very badly set back Steyr of the same period. NE 450 #2--- The 10.75x68 (425 Westley Richards) is a fine African caliber but it's VERY hard to make feed properly. The rim is seriously rebated and the magazine has to be changed to a single stack with complicated feed fingers fitted to it. It is one of the very hardest calibers to fit into a M-98.  Here's a picture of the feeding fingers of a take-down Westley Richards 425. | ||
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JBelk, Thanks for the pic,it helps. The link doesn't work,gives an error message and no explanation. I have decided to use the Amberg action for the Whelen due to the condition and already having some work done to it.This will be a working rifle anyway,so asthetics are secondary. The Oberndorf will be come a .257 Roberts AI with Octagon barrel,double set triggers,some sort of target sites to be determined later. I don't plan on going to Africa so the Whelen should be big enough to fill any needs here in North America. I have been fortunate enough to have been introduced to a gentleman who has a nice gunsmithing shop setup in his garage,hobby only. Access to proper tools will make quite a difference. <snip> To check for lug set back it's best to lap the recesses and see what contact a flat suface has on it. There is at least one picture of the process Advice noted and again thanks. Z | |||
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| <JBelk> |
Z-- Try that link here http://community.webshots.com/user/hotater The picture I referenced is in the "One Eyed Jack" album. Too many people "lap lugs" without first making the action ready to lap. On any split lug action the recesses need to be lapped before the bolt, otherwise you can't properly check headspace. | ||
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JBelk, Thanks,got the link to work this time. Lots of good pics there. Advice noted on the lugs,again thanks. Z Try that link here http://community.webshots.com/user/hotater The picture I referenced is in the "One Eyed Jack" album. Too many people "lap lugs" without first making the action ready to lap. On any split lug action the recesses need to be lapped before the bolt, otherwise you can't properly check headspace.[/QB][/QUOTE] | |||
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Mr. Belk, I noticed that the action shown had some surface pitting. Is that easy removed? Just curious because I have a FN Mauser that I wanted to build on, but it has some surface pitting on the sides of the receiver as well as the extractor claw. Thanks. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
Badboyz-- Pitting is no trouble to remove.......on a surface grinder. Some my be too deep to fully remove, though. | ||
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Mr. Belk, Sorry for the dumb question but after you've trued the lug recesses how do YOU true the bolt lugs? Do you do it on a lathe? Thanks, M [ 01-02-2003, 07:32: Message edited by: z1r ] | |||
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quote:After having had a 35 whelen AI built on a VZ-24, I'd highly recomend going with the std whelen and not the improved. I don't care what the ackley fans claim, the only way they gain more then 50 fps over the std case is by running high pressures. I also know from experience that the straighter case does not feed as smoothly out of the action. I see the miniscule increase in velocity not worth the increased work and exspense of forming the brass. I also found that the sledgehammer hit of the mauser striker had a tendancy to drive the cases forward and my fireformed cases had excessive headspace. Too bad you don't want to open up the bolt face, as I'd suggest a 416 Taylor as a fine mate to the 35 whelen. It is a straightforward round, and reloading dies are reasonably priced. | |||
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Paul H, I was leaning towards the Whelen as an Elk gun,thought the AI would give a little something x-tra along with the option of using standard loads also. I have had good results in 2 other rifles that were with the AI case and there is a noticable difference,thought the Whelen would benefit the same. Case feeding has not been a problem before,will keep this in mind. Appears i should try and keep pressure down and go with the standard case. Alot of good advice with pros and cons have been brought up,i still have some time before the barrel gets here. There are so many cartridges out there that would be fun to build a rifle on,but i will never make it to Africa,maybe Canada once more,and will try for Alaska after the kids are gone. No i think i am stuck with Oregon,and going back to Michigan once in a while for my BG hunting. Thanks all, Z <snip> After having had a 35 whelen AI built on a VZ-24, I'd highly recomend going with the std whelen and not the improved. I don't care what the ackley fans claim, the only way they gain more then 50 fps over the std case is by running high pressures. I also know from experience that the straighter case does not feed as smoothly out of the action. I see the miniscule increase in velocity not worth the increased work and exspense of forming the brass. I also found that the sledgehammer hit of the mauser striker had a tendancy to drive the cases forward and my fireformed cases had excessive headspace. <snip> | |||
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Z Have you given up on the 10.75x68 Mauser? Belk Check your data, the 425 WR is NOT the same cartridge as the 10.75x68 Mauser. | |||
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| <JBelk> |
450 NE #2-- You're right. I was thinking 10.75x68 Schuler. Sorry about that. | ||
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N E 450 No2, No i haven't.I just like to research things a bit. After seeing the post about various problems, i was having second thoughts. But seeing these last 2 posts revived my interest. I have several more Mausers that i can and will build on in the future,my primary concern is the 2 projects i am currently working on. I am going to build the 2nd action into a .257 Roberts AI,Octagon barrel,double set triggers,and a stock that will work with open target style sites. If i built a 10.75x68, i would have to have a use for it,and so far haven't come up with one. I like different... Thanks, Z quote: | |||
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