I am old enough for a absolute premium sniper rifle.
Looking since moths for the right one. Visited fairs and gun shops.
Now I have only to decide

AMP DSR 1 (Germany)
Unique Alpine TPR 1 (France/Switzerland)

Which one would you take??


Burkhard

Neither. I would decide between the proven designs of either the Sako TRG 22/42 series or the Accuracy International. I believe there was a Sonder Heft of Viser uber Scharfschutzen Gewehr, and they came to the same conclusions.
I especially wouldn't want to touch off a 338 Lapua in a Bullpup design. That much muzzle blast near your face would be unpleasant in the extreme.
I'm not familiar with the Unique Alpine but as an American I wouldn't buy anything French. The Swiss are fine though.
The TRG and AI are both battle proven designs that are rugged, superbly accurate and have well developed accessory systems.
I don't know who now distributes AI in Germany now, The former German importer Spindler now lives in Texas. But you can get the Sako's and the mid-range AI through Frankonia Jagd...........DJ

Before you spend a single dime on this project go to http://artactical.com/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=692600194 and ask S1 this question.

why not save a few bucks and try the savage 12bvss in 308 or if that isn't enough steam they makeum in 300 win mag too.

I hate to bust any bubbles but the worlds best military snipers are the U.S. MARINES, who carry a modified Remington 700.

The Chandler brothers at Iron Brigade Armory are producing a copy that is better than the original. I am not sure what their export policy is, but they are on the web if you want to check them out. You'll be hard pressed to find a better rifle. The price is steep, though.

Having used and carried the M40A1 sniper rifle in service, I am qualified to comment on the matter of sniper rifles, if you are interested. For any pundits who have never been trained and do not have the field time to back up any second hand philosophy that some other pundit wrote about in some fancy magazine, please do not comment about what I write, as it is from hard earned personal experience.

First and foremost, ruggedness is king. You had better be able to throw that rifle out of a helocopter onto the hard dirt and be able to shoot it at its zero.

Secondly, simplicity is important. You do not want half a dozen gagets and doo-dads hanging off of it to get lost, snag on every branch that you walk past, or fail to function because it breaks off. I make reference to adjustable cheek pieces/length of pulls, bipods, detatchable magazines, etc.

Many rifles built for sniping today are strictly for prone shooting. The fact of the matter is, that you may not be set up in the prone when you need to shoot, which is why I am partial to the sporter style stocks which are bit lighter, and lend themselves to a variety of shooting positions.

I am not a fan of the bipod. The rucksack works great as a shooting rest. The bipod is cumbersome, heavy and awkward to shoot from in a field setting. If you are walking from a car to a rooftop, then it is great, go for it. If you have to have it go with someting like a versapod which can be easily detatched.

If I were to pick my choice of rifle as a high end sniper rifle, I would not buy a factory set up rifle. I would start with a Nesika Bay Tactical Action (a true sniper action from the start) and have a custom gunsmith build it to my exact specifications with Krieger #9 taper barrel(perhaps fluted), Mcmillan M40A1 stock, or possibly the A5 stock for such cartridges as .338 Lapua Magnum, a solid steel drop down floorplate, Jewell trigger, and Nightforce or U.S. Optics scope. I would have length of pull cut to fit me, would have the action bedded using the Chandler method, and then call it a day.

If you have the money to buy a high end sniper rifle, you have the money to do this. I wish you well on your search, I hope this helps, and I am sure that I have ruffled a few feathers.

Theo

Theopolis, I'll not argue your field experience. But have you actually shot and/or used the Sako TRG and/or the Accuracy International rifles? To provide a valid comparison perhaps you should if you haven't. No doubt our marine snipers are superb, but many other top class organizations have chosen both the Sako and the Accuracy International and the US forces are the only ones that stick to a rebuilt hunting rifle........DJ

"I hate to bust any bubbles but the worlds best military snipers are the U.S. MARINES, who carry a modified Remington 700."

your right on the money. i've seen the Corps T&E of aviable "sniper" rifles and NONE of them beat the M40A3 now in use. the M40A1 was the most proven system in the world and the A3 is just a upgrade of it.
in the end it's training the finger on the trigger has that matters!

The AMD DSR1 would be my choice if it was with a smaller caliber (.308). Especially since you're from Germany.

Here's mine that I'm building (having built, I'm not a gunsmith).



It's a Remington 700 Police in .300W/Mag sitting in a AICS stock. Right now it's got an AI muzzle brake, Badger rings & bases, Versa-pod bipod (Parker Hale knock off), Badger bolt handle, Leupold 6.5X20X50 Mark-4 LR/T M-1 scope that's been modified by Premier Recticle.



Future plans include a L/W barrel, Shilen trigger and lots of action work.



I really wanted the SAKO TRG but the deciding factor for me was price. In the end I feel like I'll have a just as nice of a rifle, but the price is spread out over time .



What Theopolis wrote makes a lot of since. I'll be using mine to kill water filled milk jugs @ long range, so If I make a few mistakes along the way it's no big deal



Terry

Burkhard

The AI artic warfare is very popular and has been sold to many forces across the world. It has seen much use and very few other model can compete with this one.

Second would be a Sako trg. You can get one in Sweden for very decent price. I guess prices in Germany can't be that much higher. 308 win is the most logical caliber to choose

Custom built rem will not have a high resale value

Cheers
JOHAN

I own 2 sako TRG's and the going prices today are a good bit more than I paid for mine. I've yet to see an Arctic Warfare sold for much of a discount. I have sold a number of Remingtons and they rarely will bring top dollar as there are just too many of them. Customizing you own is easy so why buy someone elses? Johann in my experiance is absolutely correct.

OK, here's my point. If I was going to sell the rifle. The scope, mounts and bipod would come off. That leaves a rifle that I've got $1215 invested in. If I only get 1/2 that on resale, I've only lost $607. Could you buy either a Sako TRG or a A/I AW at today's prices, shoot them for awhile sell them, and expect to loss less money? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.



Terry

Gentlemen,

thanks for all the informations. I am on this projekt since about one year. Most of the rifles you mentioned i have tested at the range.

AI AW, also in use in the German army, is a military sniper rifle, that means you must make a compromise for durability
and rough handling.
The Sako is a pretty good rifle, lot of my frieds use it.
The Remington 700 police sniper is the rifle most of our long range shooters start with, mostly topped with a Leupold. But after some time, most of them changed to ohter brands.
I am looking for a pure sniper rifle, not a hunting rifle
rebuilt to a sniper rifle like the Remington.

I am looking for the absolute "high end sniper rifle".
Clever designed and intelligent engineered. A rife good for
0,20 Moa 100 yrds.
A rife with interchangable barrels for 308 and 338 Lapua
and maybe a hot 0.300 caliber. But not the 300 Win Mag.
I dont like the shortnecked beltet cartridge (never take beltet ammo)

After looking for more than one year for my "high end" sniper rifle, no compromise, money doesn't count. So I found at least the two ones

AMP DSR1 and Unique Alpine TPG1.

So, which of the two you would choose.

Burkhard

I am looking for a pure sniper rifle, not a hunting rifle
rebuilt to a sniper rifle like the Remington.
Burkhard

---

you realy don't have a clue do you

I don't know didly about sniper rifles, so my comments are worth about as much as most people that responded to this post

That said, I will add that most military weapon systems aren't chosen by the actual soldiers that will use the weapons, or understand the use of those weapons. Most systems are chosed by desk bound "soldiers". Just because a given force is armed with a certain weapon doesn't make it good.

As an engineer with many years of field and production experience I absolutely agree that a good design is a simple one. Unfortunately most people never gain the wisdom to see this, and fall for wistles and bells.

If you rule out the AI and the Sako, the next choice would be the rifle that ISN'T French.........DJ

The Unique Alpine TPG1 of the two would be my choice.
Otherwise, you should look at the Erma SR100 - it will shoot .25MOA and you can get interchangeable barrels for it in .338Lapua.

Neither of these rifles would be my first choice in any case. If you only want to shoot at the range, and you clearly just want somehting tht looks strange and impressive, then the ERMA SR100 or Unique Alpine TPG1 would be good for your ego.

Otherwise I would get a M24 or similar.

NICE!

I have been doing a little research............


[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=140516&c=500&z=1"][/url]



If I could only have 1, it would be the Sako TRG-42 in 338 Lapua...........DJ

The Royal Marines are fine fellows assuming that you are speaking of the British. The Dutch Royal Marines, however, are IMO the the most professional, well trained, and outfitted Armed Force that I have worked with, outside the special forces community. SAS may have snipers, and no doubt the SAS are well trained, are a bunch of human pack mules, and the absolute toughest men on the planet with the endurance that can match no other, however they are in an entirely different class of soldier than a U.S. Marine Corp Scout/Sniper platoon, whose members are dedicated full time to being Scout/Snipers, function as a complete platoon of snipers who can be employed together on one mission, seperated to be employed in different missions, or to augment other units. As a unit, the USMC Scout/Snipers are the best at what they do in the world, period.

The question that must be asked when choosing a rifle, any rifle, is what do you plan to do with it? Do you plan to shoot it at known distance ranges? Do you plan on hunting with it? Are you wanting it to train for World War III? Are you going to use it in competition? What cartridge are you going to have it chambered in? Every one of these will be a completely different rifle suitable to its specific purpose, ideally. Vast expense has been invested to try to come up with the "perfect combination gun", which is not unreasonable. You must ask yourself what you think that you will be doing with it the MOST and tailor your features to fill those needs. I would venture to say that most of the "sniper" rifles today, with a few exceptions, are conventionally identical and held to high standards of quality control, and can think of only a couple mentioned on this thread that are pure trash from the factory.

With the fact that you want to interchange barrels from two such vastly different cartridges (.308WIN & .338 Lapua Mag), you must also consider the fact of having to have two bolts for thier different bolt face diameters, and an action that will feed properly for both, which leads me to a rifle that has had much controversy on this forum, the Blaser LRS2 (sniper version of the R93), which , I believe, can facilitate both cartridges, and meet your accuracy standards.

Of the two rifles that have been selected for review, the AMP DSR-1, and the Unique Alpine TPG-1, I will throw in my opinion based upon the advertised features, and their photographs and no bias about country of origin. BTW, Robert Chombart (a Frenchman), designed possibly the most accurate action on the planet, the CG Millenium.

AMP DSR-1
In general, it has a lot of things attached to it that would make it very difficult to carry in the field for extended periods, however this would have no effect for range use, strictly prone or bench. The bullpup design is very comfortable and easy once you get accustomed to it and is rather pleasant to shoot on other rifles of this design that I have used. Someone else did make mention of a very good point, .338 Lapua Mag with a muzzle brake that close to your face, would be very unpleasant, and you would certainly rid yourself of the gun once you got tired of it. Aditionally, nobody would want to be anywhere near you when you did shoot it. By design, it appears to be the most accurate of the two, and has your quick change calibur system. It is also lighter, which is good for smaller cartridges, but will transfer more recoil to the shooter sharply. Expect severe recoil with the .338 Lapua, as the advertisement notes that the recoil is transferred more in a direct line, which means to the shooter, however the brake may dispell most of it, one never knows until he tries it out.

Unique Alpine TPG-1
Huge, comes to mind. Looks like a real man's rifle. It is more streamlined, and would be more pleasant to carry, as long as you are strong and have endurance. It is definately more pleasant to look at. Obviously it does not does not meet your interchangeability requirement. I would want a muzzle brake fitted to in for the .338 Lapua Mag, but the weight of the gun may make it not as necessary.

I like the TPG-1 rifle the best, personally, and wish they were readily available here, as I would like to try one out. Of the two I would buy the TPG-1. Given your stated desirable features, however, of the two, I would have to recommend the DSR-1. It meets your accuracy requirements, and calibur interchangeability. If those are requirements, as you stated, then the TPG-1 is out of the question, look at the Blaser to compare with.

Theopolis

Based on your request for comment and the responses here I'd say you should but the one that LOOKS the best.
Practical experience isn't really important to consider. After all, a real sniper has much more concern for reliable equipment, functionality, and accuracy. What you are really after isn't just a sniper rifle but one thats as pretty and expensive as it should be. All other aspects are of little consiquence.

The AMP DSR-1 is hard to get here state side. It is also pretty usless as a true sniper rifle. Too much stuff to grab onto everything around you. It will also not hold up in the dirty, muddy and dusty conditions. It is really best suited to be a range queen or F class gun. It looks cool and is accurate, but it will not hold up in the crud and dragging it around.

The Accuracy international AW and the Sako TRG 42 are two great rifles built as SWS (sniper weapon systems) from the ground up, well pretty much anyways.
Either of these will suit you fine and hold up in real deal use. Both rifles are capable of sub 1/2 MOA accuracy. There is absolutley no loss or trade off for durability with the AI.

I am pretty sure the Erma is no longer made, and the same people designed the DSR1.

As was said, it seems you are not after a true sniper weapon system, just a fancy cool looking shooter.

If you really want a real deal SWS, the AI, SAKO or custom built on a REMMY action would be it.
The Neskia actions are too tight to be used on the real deal SWS, even the Tactical actions. I have seen them fail in the nitty gritty hard use.


FWIW
Celt

Celt, not looking for a feud on the subject because it really doesn't matter to me that much. I'm NOT a sniper, I don't dwell on it other than in regards to the long range aspect of the craft. I offered the link in lieu of discussing something I'm not worldly about. Perhaps S1 is not the last word on sniper craft and gun building but he does have a following more substantial than your dismissal would suggest. Appreciate the links BTW, will peruse them later.

The photo posted by .257kid that you referenced as the PGM Timberwolf...w/o arguing merits of the gun builder or rifle, seems to be the atithesis of what Theopolis had to say on the subject, and who's comments and thoughts have some credibility in my eye. Your thoughts seem to have some background, what are your bonifides if I may be so bold?

DD,
I may have been a little blunt about that, but the guy your talking about has been booted from a few forums for being Belligerent. I do not want to start a fued here either. S1 does have a decent knowlegde and has built some decent rifles. I only find that it is hard to get through the arguing that always ensued his posts. I guess you may say it left a bad taste in my mouth.

My bonafides....

US Army 82D' ABN INF B co 1/325 80-82 DM slotted.

I now build rifles for many police and some military snipers currently, as well as many competitive shooters in the Tactical LR arena. A fellow who took the ILR nationals in 2003 did so with one of our rifles.

I currently train with the VV county sheriff's sniper, local FBI amd BORTAC snipers. I am however not currently slotted as a sniper.
Other people I work with every day, my partner and employees:
Partner: Slotted sniper for the VV county Sheriff
Employee: graduate of the AF and FBI sniper schools retired SP.
Employee: Ex Army, DM, scout. Retired Oilfield Saturation Diver, and FD U/W Rescue/ Recovery Diver.

We all train together and are competitive shooters, and train with the Agencies stated above.

Take care,

Celt

I would buy Sako TRG 22 or 42 cals .308 or 338 Lapua Mag
This is built for sniper use,I wouldnt hesitate,check this rifle before y deside.

Elias

Celt, impressive resume'! S1 can be a hard head on occasion, takes a little 'adjustment'. Burkhard is located in Germany according to his name thing so mostly I was suggesting conversation rather than purchase. I'd guess it pretty tough for a German national to import a US manufacture rifle.

Anyhoo, guess it was past your time but the 82nd saved Miami's butt a few years back after Andrew came to visit. Always greatful for that. Now if we can just teach them how to vote...

Spent some time in the 101st and 1st Cav as a Scout some time back. Amazed that I survived it all things considered.

Thanks for the link BTW, take care, nice to meet you.

Dan