Hi guys,
I need some advice(as usual). I’m looking for a smith to put together a Mauser in 404 Jeffery. Problem is that I am not wealthy, as far as monetary resources are concerned, so I cannot afford to throw down some major coin on a gun with all the bells and whistles. What I want is a “po boy” working gun. It would probably help if I share some of the specifics I had in mind for this build.

Action: I have a “same as new” FN Supreme commercial action. I would like to have an Oberndorf style handle installed but I worry about clearance between the handle and the eye piece on the scope(please advise).

Bottom Metal: I am absolutely going to use Duane Wiebe’s 4MJ bottom metal with a standard depth floorplate. If I can only fit three down, that is fine with me. It’s the only bottom metal I know of that is 404 Jeffery specific.

Barrel: 23”-25” finished length(please advise). As far as a manufacturer, I thought about a Lothar Walther blank but some people have a strong dislike for LW barrels, suggestions are welcome.

Safety: Maybe an Ed LaPour 3-position or a Satterlee(please advise).

Sights: NECG Masterpiece banded front and NECG Masterpiece rear.

Front Swivel Stud: Barrel mounted.

Bases and Rings: Obviously I want to use detachable rings. I really like the EAW Quick-Loc set up but due to money constraints, maybe
Talley(please advise).

Scope: Probably a Leupold VX-6 1-6X24mm.

Stock: This is where I am scared to even mention my plans, but here goes. Be easy on me… I am looking at using a McMillan synthetic(Eeek!). I assure you that if I could I would have a nice piece of wood stuck on it, but most of the blanks I see cost more that most of the guns I own. Then when you factor in the cost of having the blank finished, I get a little light headed. I appreciate the aesthetics and feel of a highly figured stock as much as the next guy, but it is just not an option for me.

I hope I covered everything. The one thing that I am not willing to cut costs on is feeding and reliability. These are my pet peeves on any gun, even if it is just for hunting P-Dogs(they’ve been known to charge when wounded). If I had my choice on a smith it would be Duane Wiebe, but I feel a project like this would be a waste of his talent. I’ve bugged him enough with questions about his 404 bottom metal. That man was born to make masterpieces. Legendary…

I guess what I am looking for is a smith that knows the 404 Jeffery Mauser, in and out, and is a master in regard to feeding and reliability(cheap is good too). I am not looking to build a museum piece, just a functional rifle at an affordable price. Although if money was no object, I would have something smilar to these built:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...191030271#1191030271

http://forums.accuratereloadin...701070261#8701070261

These two guns make me weak in the knees and dream about that trip to Africa. I really like the banded rear sight base on Wink’s gun.

I have had a lifelong dream of having a 404 Jeffery built on a Mauser action. My Great Uncle, who is more like a father to me, has offered to take me to Africa on a buff hunt(another lifelong dream). I’m only in my twenties so “lifelong” in my case isn’t that long of a stretch, but a dream is a dream. Hopefully I can get that 404 built. I am selling other toys and getting funds together for this project. I would appreciate your opinions and recommendations on gunsmiths and on the specifics of this build. Thanks for your help fellas.

I haven't gone through the process of planning and then commissioning a custom rifle enough times to give anybody any advice except this: if you know exactly what rifle you want, put aside and save what you can until you can afford exactly the one you want working with the riflemaker of your choice.

My first four African safaris were done with my first big bore rifle, a Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in .375 H&H. If I had waited until I could afford a custom rifle before hunting in Africa, then I probably would never have gone on those first safaris. I'm glad I bought it and glad I was able to go on those safaris. It's still one of my favorite rifles; it shoots straight and still looks good to me. I put Talley mounts and QD rings on it, to answer one of your questions. As for a synthetic stock, I think I would rather hunt in Africa with a Winchester Model 70 or a CZ 550 Magnum rifle, with their original factory wood stocks, then a "custom" with a plastic stock. But that's just me.

I definitely understand your point, Wink.

I do have a Winchester Safari Express in 375 as well. I love that gun, amazingly accurate too. I'm convinced the 375 is to the world what the 30-06 is to the U.S.. When I was 18 I loaded this 375 up with some speer 235's and took quite a few whitetail with it. While my friends were hung up on video games, I was obsessed with hunting, big bores, and girls(in that order). Turns out that the girls cost the most money. My wife will give me a look if she reads this.

That said, I am not convinced that the 375 is "ideal" for buff. Adequate yes, but not ideal. At least that is my reason for wanting a .404 Jeffery. Your right though, plastic stocks suck. Here is the stock color I had it mind. Yeah, I know, "lipstick on a pig".

why don't you start out with a Winchester m70 in .300 rum... its already got a 3 position safety, controlled feed like the mauser... drilled and tapped for scope bases... and ought to hold at least 2 down, you can find the donor rifle for $1k or less... I bought a stainless .300 rum m70 for less than $600.. NIB...and a 404 jeff is only a barrel change away...

I gave the Winchester action route serious consideration. That would be the smart thing to do. But I really, really love the mauser action and a 404 would be just perfect on that platform. Plus, I have way too many mauser actions not to use one for this build. Everytime a came across a FN commercial action, I gobbled it up. I paid what most people pay for military actions and these are already drilled and tapped. Although the swept bolt handle isn't all that aesthetically pleasing, to me anyways. They did come with nice bottom metal, but that doesn't help me in the 404 department.

Dennis Olson in Plains, MT has done some work for me in the past and he is regarded as someone who can get an action to feed a 404 quite handily.

In terms of a stock I'd look at getting one worked down to your dimensions and tastes and then contact Tip Burns in Texas to discuss the duplication. Quite reasonable and excellent quality I thought when I visited his shop last year.

I would take some strong build cues from some old English guns; slim and trim in the hand with exquisite balance to say the least.

Keep us posted.

Do you have any contact info for Mr. Olson? Thanks!

500 1st Street
Plains, MT 59859

406 826 3790

My current model 70 build will run about 3200 complete, with the stock and stock work about 950 for everything. I realise that is inexpensive in the world of custom rifles. If you search though I think you can find a 90+pct inletted stock and a tradesman that will finish the stock at a reasonable price.

Both my 375 and 404 came in at that figure.

p.s. I purchased 4 Win custom shop SE 99pct stocks on ebay about 3 years ago for 150.00 each
You can find some decent stocks on ebay. You need to know what your buying and that requires some homework and communication with the seller. I would see if you can buy with a return privilege in case the stock does not meet approval with your stockmaker.

Thank you all for the replies! I forgot to mention my plans as far as a trigger goes. I do plan on using a Blackburn trigger.

What do you think about barrel length and contour? I am thinking about LW's #1450 contour. Still not sure on length. Just sold a few other toys, so I am going to start placing some orders this week.

I think I am going to go ahead and put a McMillan on this gun. There are always other options in the future, God willing. I figure I can A. Restock it in wood at a later date. B. Sell this gun and take out a second mortgage and have Duane build me a masterpiece. C. Keep this gun, take out a second mortgage and have Duane build me a masterpiece.

I am thinking C. After all, to borrow lyrics from a Three Dog Night's song, "One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do."

P.S. I'm kidding about the second mortgage, I'm not that stupid. Hopefully the wife and I will have a few kids by then, so I'll just sell one them.

The 404 can be built on a standard M-98 as it is about the same length as a 375 H&H

My Original Jeffery that was built in Jan of 1907 on a standard lenght action and it makes a nice, slim, lightweight rifle. This one is 8 1/2 pounds and hold 3 down.






You can see how they cut the magazine box to widen it enough for the large 404 shells

You want a pininfarina body, a ferrari V12 motor, a paddle shifter, but you can't afford a Ferrari?

You don't need all that high end stuff. Your action can easily be modified to store/feed the 404. (Ask me how). A timney trigger with a side safety is fine, or without if you put a Buheler-type safety on the bolt. Heck, a Dayton Traister trigger and scope safety will give you great service.

For sights, put an XS weaver backup ghost ring on the back. NECG is excellent for a front.

23" plus or minus an inch is just right .,. the combination of your barrel contour and the NECG banded ramp diameter will dictate the barrel length.

For a stock, get a Hogue overmolded with the full length rail. You can have a custom wood stock made when your ship comes in.

This should not cost you more than $2000. Heck, if you have the action, you should be able to get it done for $1250. Rust blued to boot.

458Win, now that is the kind of 404 I'm talking about. Simple yet elegant in its own way. I wish that thing could talk. Is there a plate or anything in the stock to keep the bullet noses from beating up the wood? That is an amazing piece of history. They really milled back the rear bridge too! Thanks for taking the time to post the pics.

Russ, great analogy! I'm young still yet and admittedly have a lot to learn. I'm lucky enough to have a passion for the classics. I'm also lucky in the sense there are people on this forum with a wealth of knowledge and the patience to pass that knowledge on to kids like me. Your exactly right about the "Ferrari", I don't need it. I don't think I'll do the hogue stock. I've never have been able to warm up to them. I just ordered 3 books on stock making. I also have some walnut from the old family farm that is just the right size to make some stock blanks out of(yes it was kiln dried and its been setting in a climate controlled shop for the last 40 years, at least that's what my dad says). It's nothing fancy but its got some good straight grain and should be stout. Plus I won't cry if it get beat up a little. I always wanted to make my own stock, so I think I'll teach myself on an old bolt action 22 I've had for a while. I'll still do the McMillan for now though.

I had really debated on an express rear sight vs a peep. I truly think the peep is superior. That said, I want to use a scope and I wonder if it would be a hassle to carry a peep sight around with you(obviously its a small object, but small stuff tends to get lost easy), where as a barrel mounted rear sight is always there. I alway set my guns up with a QD ring system of some sort, but I've never had a scope fail me in the field so my experience is nill when it come to having to use back up sights.

Well, enough for tonight. I'm so tired I'm getting delirious. I'm finishing up one of my degrees this semester and have some tests tomorrow. Thanks again fellas!

Let me first of all wish you all the best in the rifle project and the African hunt.

I am in a similar position to you in many respects (except age!)

I have been wanting a classic DG big bore for a few years and have wanted to hunt Africa for a buffalo. But the economic down turn stopped things.

I planned a 404 jeffery project on very similar lines but using a GASC English walnut stock and the total cost estimate came to about $3.5k.

Then in January I asked my local gun shop to look out for a big bore (they are very rare here in NZ). He gave me the option of a brand new CZ 550 mag in 416 Rigby with Kevlar stock. I also found a really nice 404 Jeffery project rifle but it was heavier and the stock was not checkered. I settled on the Rigby and I am now thrilled with it.

If I already had a 375 H&H (I actually have a 9.3X62), I would use the CEB non-con & Raptor bullets which seem to be absolutely lethal for heart lung shots including hitting bone.

You may also look at Holt's London auction and see if a servicable rifle comes up at a good price. You will be surpriced - A nice rifle under $3k is not unheard of.

I recommend Tip Burns of Canyon Sporting Arms. He has built two 404 Jeffery rifles for me, based on Montana Rifles' actions.



Engraving from Roger Kehr aka Scrollcutter

If a fiberglass stock gets you to Africa, use it.

Cody, I like your idea of doing a stock on your own. This one on the original Jeffery has no cross bolts and there are no extra recoil lugs but the stock is still solid. The Brits chose their wood purely on good grain and strength, rather than fancy.
If you look closely at the photo you can see a steel plate inletted into the wood at the front of the box. Here is another closer one



From the photos you can also see that the first of the rifles that we now consider to be "big bores" like the 404 and 375 were built fairly light and slim so they could be carried by hunters who were on foot, rather than riding in the back of a Land Rover or Toyota.

here is a photo of an early 375 H&H that was also built slim on a standard length H&H.



There is no reason you can't build up your rifle as you go and you will gain valuable experience and knowledge, along with having the rifle you wish.

That is how I ended up with this



It's not "pretty" -- but ist sure is beautiful to use.

My local Cabela's had a 375 identical to the one Phil has posted above and Lordy was that a thing to hold! I like those lim, trim rifle builds.

Mount the scope in a scout position and never worry about scope eye again. They you can use a Lyman / Redfield / Williams peep for your irons and have any bolt handle you want.

Thanks Rusty, I'll keep your smith in mind.

Phil, I get what you mean. That bottom gun reminds me of my first truck when I turned 16. I don't think a single body panel was the same color and you had to roll down the window to open the door. People may have grimaced at it, but I was proud as hell. Ya can't court the ladies without a horse. Young, dumb, and full of... ahem... inspiration! I am convinced as well that building my own stock will be a good idea. I pretty sure I'm capable, I've messed with trying to teach myself carving in the past. I carved a coffee table out of a stump(I cheated and did the rough work with a chainsaw). It really took some time, but it sure was cool. Seems that patience and a good eye will be the key with building a stock.

viperidae, I have tried my hardest to warm up to forward mounted scopes. They make perfect sense. I bought a Ruger Frontier in 7mm-08 when they came out. I always found myself using the scope set on 1x. Any magnification always fouled me up. So I just stuck with open sights. I still have the gun, but I ended up slapping an Aimpoint on it. Perfect gun for hogs in a brushy area. Those things are running rampant in Notheast Oklahoma... great fun.

Could someone tell me what would be a good muzzle diameter on a 404? .725" at 24-25" maybe? Too heavy, too light?

When I was at Tip Burns's place last year in Texas, he had one with a 5130 LW contour and it was .625 at 26" and felt absolutely wonderful.

Re ghost ring/peep as a backup to scope: the answer, if you want to go first class, is a Brockman/Talley base set with integral pop-up peep. If you want to save money, use an XS "backup" ghost ring sitting on a Weaver type base set. If you want to go really cheap, get one of those folding ghost rings that screws to the back of a one piece base (I have seen these on Browning Safaris ... I think Redfield used to make the little peep but I may be wrong).

Of course, you can always bag the scope and use a permanent ghost ring. XS makes one for the Mauser action that is not quick detachable.

Re making a stock from scratch ... by all means, but get it machine duplicated so that 95% of the work is done.

Custom bottom metal not necessary. You can use original Mauser or you can get Parker Hale bottom metal and modify that. You need to cut off the mag box and replace with a wider longer box. I have some if you need.

Yes, it was Redfield who sold those little fold down peeps on some of their bases. I like them as a back up, and purchased 4 or 5 on ebay a year or so ago.

Not fancy, but they are always there ready to use, and they do work.

Talking of folding peep sights - anyone use the retractable peep on the old ZKK60X actions?

I would go with a semi custom.

Find a action that the 404 well work in with out a bunch of work.

I did a 416 taylor on a ruger MKII did the stock work myself. Had the barrel work done by a good smith.

Because I didn't have to do any smithing besides the barrel. No drilling and tapping no bolt bending, No heat treating or any other work that needs to be done to a 98 with out scope I ended up with 900.00 dollar rifle starting with a brand new rifle.

Today I would add a extra 300 to 500 to the price for inflation.

I don't understand useing a action the requires huge amount of smithing to it to bring it up to modren rifle standards.

The model 70,Ruger MKII,CZ ect well give you a great working rifle for a lot less then a reworked 98.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I
The model 70,Ruger MKII,CZ ect well give you a great working rifle for a lot less then a reworked 98.

Yes, but less isn't always more. Sometimes, getting what you WANT outweighs saving a paltry few dollars.

All depends on the individual's needs/wants I suppose.

Of course, if one wanted the easiest .404 I suppose they would buy an off the shelf CZ or used Ruger but they don't appeal to everyone.

quote:

Yes, but less isn't always more. Sometimes, getting what you WANT outweighs saving a paltry few dollars.

OP said he didn't have lots of money to spend

Lots is relative.

I assume anyone interested in building a rifle already knows they are going to spend more than simply purchasing an off the shelf rifle. Besides, it is not as if the cz500 in .404 is exacty inexpensive.

I guess I just take the OP at his word when he says he wants a .404. Otherwise, I assume he would just buy one of the numerous factory 416's that duplicate the Jeffery's performance..

You are right p dog shooter, the "smart" thing to do would be to just use something like a Winchester or MRC action. I just have a thing for Mausers and it just seems right that I use one of my commercial FN actions. I took a quick glance at what the used Magnum Length(short rear bridge) Winchester actions were running and it looked like I would be spending around 750-800. I think I'd just rather invest that money into an action I already have. Since its a commercial mauser, it's already drilled and tapped and there is no charging hump to contend with. The bolt handle, safety, and having the action/bolt face opened up are the additional costs. Bottom metal would have been replaced either way so that cancels out.

Long story short, I like Mauser actions, so that's what I'm going to use. Yes, it's more expensive, I'll just have to sacrifice some other toys to make funds for this one. If things go my way, I'll have it to enjoy for a lifetime and my kids as well.

I'm just ordered the bottom metal and follower from Duane. I elected to go with the standard depth floorplate. The other option wasn't neccesarily a "drop box" but rather a floorplate that had a little "depth" to it that allowed four down. I decided that I wanted the cleaner look of the shallow plate and 3 down is fine with me.

Been a couple of years since I saw them, but a local gunsmith (actually a retired machinist who'd done gunsmithing as a sideline for 40 plus years?) used Remington/eddystone? P14 actions to build two 404 jefferies rifles for a guy. As I recall, the gunsmith preferred using the P14 actions, instead of the U.S. M1917 (30-06) actions, since they had bolt faces made for the rimmed 303 Enfield cartridge. Finished barreled actions looked pretty darn good.

Apprentice

I don't know if it would be availale at your local library, and if not you might find it somewhere on the internet, but I think it would be fun for you to read the article entitled "The .404 African" in Peterson's Rifle Shooter magazine from Nov/Dec 2001.

Its a story by Jerry Lee and Photographed by Mustafa Bilal of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild Rilfe #17 built on a C ring 1947 FN mauser action, with major metalwork by Steve Nelson and absolutely superb stockwork by Charles Worthing (aka Chic Worthing) who post here as CustomStox.

The story and the photographs of that .404 will inspire you!!

I have been away from the computer for a while due do this, that, and another. Here is the latest update on the project. I have the barrel ordered: A Lothar Walther in #1400 Heavy Weight Sporter contour(.650" muzzle @ 26"), it will be cut back to 24".
Should have a check on the way this week to Custom Gun and Rifle for Duane's bottom metal and follower. I have talked to Duane and he is going to install the barrel and do the action and feeding work. I figured that this is a smart move given his experience with the .404. I really want him to install the sights and do the bolt handle work as well but it just depends on how much money I have gathered up when the action goes his way. I plan on posting pics of the action and materials as this project goes together. I'll let you know when some other parts and pieces arrive.

Since you live in MO and you want to make your own stock....may I suggest you look up Fred Wenig in Sedalia, MO. He is retired and knows more about stockmaking than most people. Tell him your story. He is not heartless. Be patient and he may just help you create your stock. Tell him I sent you.

Getting ready to order one of Ed LaPour's 3-position safeties. I see a high and low profile safety listed. Any advice on which would be the one I want? I'm not even sure what the advantage or disadvantage would be. Thanks in advance.

there is a difference between adequate and optimal.

I am thinking about a 404J myself.

While we are romancing the rifle. . . .

Jeffery 404

With acknowledgement to Rege Podraza ( Where Elephants go to die )

It rested between the ivory
That hung on grandpa’s wall
It’s finish checked and yellowed
Like the tusks it helped to fall

It’s barrel smooth and polished
From a hundred bearers hands
It reflected the light warmly
Like campfires flickering bands

The stock of English walnut
Chewed and clawed a bit
It still showed a trace of checkering
And a dent where a horn had hit

Stamped on the barrel lightly
Was a name and not much more
A single word Jeffery
Jeffery 404

If that rifle could only talk
And take us back again
With grandpa in Africa
A time of buffalo, elephant and men


But that day has set it’s sun
And the rifle speaks no more
Oh what I’d give for one last time
To hear that baby roar

Grandpa's Jeffery
His Jeffery 404

quote:

Originally posted by Apprentice:
Getting ready to order one of Ed LaPour's 3-position safeties. I see a high and low profile safety listed. Any advice on which would be the one I want? I'm not even sure what the advantage or disadvantage would be. Thanks in advance.

Purely cosmetic. I think he has pics on his website. I like the high myself, looks more "mauserish".
Don

I guess another option would be to have a shroud converted to a two position side swing. Any experience? Is it any cheaper? Any drawbacks besides not being able to unload the gun with the safety engadged? These may sound like elementary questions to you guys, but I just don't have much experience the different safety options on Mausers. Thanks again.

No such thing as "elementary questions". I have both kinds. I don't know that I prefer one over the other.

Rusty,
The two position does lock the bolt in the safe position doesn't it?