anyone have experience with either of these cartridges? any info good bad or otherwise would be great.

If this is an "either/or" type of decision, might I suggest the 375 Hawk/375 Whelen AI? Extremely wide range of bullets, 235-300, Easy to form brass from 30-06 or 35 Whelen, plenty of shoulder for positive headspace, power all out of proportion to its appearance, a snap to do on a standard action, etc. I have one (Whelen AI)on a Mauser with a Shilen #3 and it shoots lights out and isn't finiky, and packs the power of a 338 winchester. Anyway, just an idea.

Poulsbo,

Both are fun, but with the 411 Hawk, you have to make the brass and load the cartridges. With the 35 Whelen, you can buy ammo at most sporting goods stores.

I would agree with Snowcat that the 375 Hawk is the best of both worlds shooting a 250 grain bullet @ 2700 fps. Again, you have to make the brass, but it is easy.

If you hunt Elk in Griz country, you may feel better with more power like the 411 Hawk and you will find it easy to load. Headspace is not an issue with the cartridge unless your FL dies push the improved shoulder back to '06 specs like the orginal Whelen shooters encountered.

Snapper

My choice would be the .35 Whelen, but then you knew that, didn't you?
Paul B.

I talked my friend into a 35 Whelen last year. He shot a nice mule deer buck at 313 yds through both shoulders and did not recover the bullet. His next shot took a nice doe at 198 yds through the lungs and dropped her in her tracks also. 225 grain Northfork bullet.

I shot the 35 Whelen for years until I had that gun rebarreled to 375 Hawk. Love it, (ie don't knock till you've tried it) but, I still have another 35 Whelen in the closet.

I have the 400 Whelen Improved (40 degree shoulder), AND the 35 Whelen AI.

What are you planing to shoot with this rife?

I really like the 400 Whelen for large game. Well designed for animals elk sized and larger, and bear larger than black. Do you need a 40 caliber hole in something? Then the 411 Hawk or 400 Whelen is a great choice.

However, if this is going to be an elk/deer/black bear rifle, you can't go wrong with the 35 Whelen (in any configuration).
It doesn't matter what rifle you build it from, I've never heard anyone say they didn't like their 35 Whelen.

Garrett

What action do you want to build the gun on and what/where do you want to hunt with it? That would influence my choice.

it's going to be built on a rem 700 action a shilen barrell and an h-s precision stock. prob. have an after market trigger installed to, this gun is going to be used in brushy country for blacktail and whitetail deer.i know there are going to be ten people telling me that this is overkill save it i've already heard this from my hunting buddies.

35 Whelen, hands down. You will Love it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Oki:
35 Whelen, hands down. You will Love it.

I'll 2nd that!!!

35 Whelen.

By the way, Hornady makes a 180 grain spire point .358 bullet marked as a pistol bullet.

It's meant for Contender/Encore pistols.

You can get it very close to 3000 fps in the 35 Whelen, which is devastating on whitetails.

Garrett

the velocities for the whelen are impresive, i like the thought of putting a 35 cal hole in a deer. which leads to another question... as a rule will a 35 whelen wound leave a better blood trail than a 25-06, i know this will depend on shot placement etc. but with shot placement the same for both calibers whats everyones experience?

poulsbo, it is no fun tracking deer shot with a 35 whelen. They are laying right where you shot them. I have about 20 rifles and my 35 wh. would be the last one I would ever sell.

Seems to me like the selection of .411 bullets would be real limited , compared to a 35 or 375 caliber.......

9.3x62...................................9.3x62..................................9.3x62!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Already an Imp.dimension factory case,without all the hassles(or fun)depends why you want to do, what you want to do.

SnowCat,
If the 35 A.I.Wheelchair packs all the power of the .338wm then that would make it more a 358Nm, which it is not.

Oh, and if i didnt mention it before...9.3x62....its loyal users dont generally claim it to be a .375H&H,except at its shorter capable range.

Based on what and where you said that you want to hunt, I am going to make the assumption that you occasionally encounter clearcuts and such where a longer shot is desired. I like both rounds, but for the stated purpose would recommend the Whelen because of the availability of factory fodder, more bullets to choose from, bullets available at most gunshops that sell reloading components, and because it is flatter shooting so shot placement through heavy brush at longer distanced is more precise.

Dave

Load a 35 whelen with a good 225 @ 2700, and there are very few animals that you'll want more bullet or more speed for, it is certainly enough for any lower 48 game inside 300 yds.

35's are super versatile with cast or jacketed pistol bullets at 1200 fps for almost no recoil plinking. General cast shooting with bullets in a huge range of weights, and then full patch jacketed loads.

To me, the -06 case simply isn't big enough to hold the powder needed to drive 40 caliber bullets the velcoties I want to, and a 416 mag can always be downloaded to do anything the 400 whelen can do, as well as many things it can't.

Poulsbo,

So what do you think?

The 9.3x62 was also suggested and splits the difference between your choices with a factory gun, but maybe a reloading choice also. The 375 Scovill is the 9.3 case necked up.

The improved '06 case seemed to be fine for the 411 Hawk and will flatten anything you run into in North America and could be used in Africa where the 9.3x62 is considered minimum.

I read that Elmer Keith shot the 400 Whelen for 11 years and enjoyed it.

The 411 Hawk will deliver over 4000 foot pounds of energy. The magic number, in many expert hunters eyes, for dangerous game.

"411 Hawk...More sauce than many popular black powder cartridges once used for elephant hunting." Wayne van Zwoll, Petersen’s Rifle Shooter Magazine December, 2000

The bullet/load for Africa was 400 gr. Hawk Round Nose, Reloader 15 @57 gr. = 2159 fps, Model 43 psi 58,700.

For our deer, Bear and Elk, an excellent load would be the 300 grain bullet at 2550 fps traveling over 2,100 fps at 300 yds and still producing over 3,000 ft pds of enery at that distance for those long shots you may take out to 300.

Last option is to get all three, thats what I did.

Snapper

Woodjack-

I was talking about the 375 Whelen AI. I get 2600 with 260's (as does ZHAT/Hawk Cartridges)
375 Hawk
which equates to 3905 foot lbs.

A 338 Winchester shooting a 225 at 2800 produces 3917 foot pounds.

If that difference matters to you, you crass bastard, you are far more discerning than I (or the elk I'll shoot with it) am.

quote:

Originally posted by snowcat:
Woodjack-
....... you crass bastard.....

Snowcat,
thats the nicest thing anyone has said to me today.
You might like to try the GSCustom265HV in your 375hawk. That thing has the more energy/velocity at 300yds than the 270FS has at 200yds,when launched at the same velocity.

Poulsbo,

Is this making any sense?

We kind of expanded your discussion just a bit with the addition of the 375 Hawk/375 Whelen AI. These are similar but the 375 Hawk was developed by punching out a 375 Whelen improved with a 9.3x62 reamer resulting in a shorter neck and more powder capacity.

I would agree with snowcat that shooting a 250 grain bullet at 2700 fps is similar to factory 338 win mag at 250/2660fps. The other difference is that the 375 leaves a larger hole with a nonbelted case and 4 cartridges in the mag. I'm only using 59 grains of powder and the gun is easy to shoot.

I've also tried the 235 gr @ 2800 and they shoot very well (flat) and hit hard way out there.

If you read about this cartridge on z-hat.com you will see where Dave Scovill shot a mule deer doe at just over 400 yds.

We have also conected with antelope does at 414 & 360 yds the past two years and I can tell you this round was not lacking for power when it hit those antelope.

One final thought, I have not used my 35 Whelen since having my 375 Scovill (Hawk) built. Would I do it again? I did! My daughter was having so much fun shooting my original 375, that I gave it to her and had another one built.

Hope this helps.

Snowcat,

I forgot about the z-hat reference to the 375 H&H and feel it is important to list it:

The 375 Hawk delivers the same ballistics that made the 375 H&H famous in the early 1900's.
In Phil Sharpe's "The Rifle in America" 1938, Mr. Sharpe quotes ballistics for the factory loaded 375 H&H as follows, "The 235 grain is loaded at a muzzle velocity of 2775 f.s., the 270 at 2750 f.s., and the 300 at 2475 f.s."

You will note that the 375 Hawk/Scovill easily approaches these numbers. The important difference is, the Hawk does it with less powder, no belt, less recoil, and in a 30-06 length action!

Z-Hat Custom chambers only for the 375 Hawk/Scovill.

l

Between the two, I would pick a 35 Whelen, probably an AI version.

But I think Woodjack said it best with 9.3x62.