I am so disgusted with this rifle, a left-handed Classic Safari Express in 375 H&H caliber.

Here's the latest.

Hornady 300 grain soft points don't feed worth a crap.

The problem is the first round out of the magazine. Fully loaded, the rifle (remember, it's left-handed, and that's important in a minute here) holds one round in the chamber and three in the magazine. Okay, fire one, cycle the action. I'd say it happens one out of ten times, but the first round off the top of the magazine gets hung up.

A normal, non-problematic feed occurs with the round jumping up with the case head slipping under the extractor, the whole cartridge pretty much in line with the chamber and going straight in.

In a malfunctioned feed, the nose of the bullet comes up too far. The case head is still below the right feed rail, so the upward angle is severe. The nose of the bullet catches on the rear edge of the chamber. The bolt wil not go forward any further, and pulling it back does not extract the misfed round.

It's easy enough to pick out with my fingers, but in principle, this is my second shot at a big heavy animal that really needs a second bullet.

This malfunction leaves a distinct impression on the nose of the bullet. The rear edge of the chamber cuts into the lead just inside of where the jacket stops. I've now got eight dummy rounds with this distinctive impression on them.

Any ideas what's wrong with this rifle? It was purchased to hunt dangerous game with. I just put a new front sight on it and was going looking forward to shooting it tomorrow. I don't even see the point in wasting live ammunition zeroing the thing, since when it gets back to me from the gunsmith (again), the point of impact will probably be different again.

H. C.

Measure the belt diam. of a round that feeds properly and one that jams- just in case you have a brass problem not a rifle problem. Otherwise you will need to do some very carefull polishing and testing until the rifle functions 100%. The magazine box could also be the wrong for the cartridge. Sometimes the chamber is too sharp and will compound the problem. First and foremost is the cartridge needs to make a smooth transition forom the mag box up into the bolt face(extractor) if you have access to a rifle that works properly, load some dummy ammo and watch how it works, with the proper adjustment yours should work also.
Option #2 if the rifle is new- Take it back- make them fix it>

I had a similar problem with my .300WM. It would feed fine from the right side of the magazine, but when feeding from the left side, it would do just about what you describe. I was relly pissed, as it is my pet custom rifle... a three-thousand dollar SINGLE SHOT rifle? Dammit.

If I worked the bolt with authority, sometimes the round would pop up, and as i slammed the bolt home, the round would totally stove-pipe, sticking straight out the top of the loading port, with a dent in it, cuz i slammed the bolt on it. Not pretty. Other times it did just what you said, and rammed the bullet tip into the edge of the chamber, or into the extractor cut.

The problem was: the top of the magazine box is slightly curved, sorta like feed lips (although the actual feed lips are the rails milled into the inside of the receiver) as I pulled the bolt back- the round popped up, and the curved top of the mag was pushing the round toward the center, away from the feed lip, so the feed lip was not catching the round properly. The base of the cartridge was still beneath the feed lip, but the nose would pop out.

All i did was remove the mag, straighten out the curved part on the one side (i used some duckbills, like you use for sheetmetal work) and POW, It WORKS!

Don't straighten the other side, if that side is working properly. Another way to see if this is the problem, without messing up your mag, would be to take a mag from a .416 rigby, which has a straight walled mag (no curved part at the top) and try it.

hope this helps
sorry for any spelling or grammatical errors, no coffee yet

marc

This might not be what you want to hear, but I would send it to a Gunsmith that will make it work. I would suggest shipping it to Mark Penrod. He will find a spring/follower/box combination, along with any necessary rail work, that will make the rifle feed like it should. If in Canada, I would recommend Bill Leeper or Martin Hagn who will accomplish the same thing. It will be money well spent but shouldn't break the bank.



Ask him to install a Williams extractor while he's at it.



Chuck

Henry, my buddy and I bought model 70 375s at about the same time, mine LH, his RH. His had a red recoil pad and a monte carlo stock, mine a black recoil pad and a non-monte carlo stock.

I noticed immediately that the followers on the two were different. His was steel, mine was aluminum.

His fed slick as could be, mine fed the first two cartridges out of the magazine ok but the 3rd fed like a push feed.

I later found out his was made in Connecticut and mine was from Winchester's new plant in South Carolina.

Good news was they both shot terrific.

I ordered a new follower from Brownells, #724-101-375, and when it arrived it was a duplicate of my buddy's follower.

I had to grind the back edge just a hair and it fit perfectly. It also solved my problem.

You might try it if you have the SC version, hope it helps.

Jim

Duane,

It all feeds badly. I've got 8 dummies that fed incorrectly. If I keep putting a round in the top of the magazine and feeding it, I can get this malfunction to happen within 20 tries. I guess I am looking at the reliability I'd like as similar to a carry gun or my IDPA equipment. If I get one malfunction in 1000 with a pistol or revolver, I get to the bottom of it. It's just that with a pistol or revolver, I know who to go to.

I do intend to send this out to a gunsmith to correct the problem. I just hope I can find someone I can send it to with absolute confidence. I don't mind waiting 6 months for the right man to get to the job or being charged what a good man is worth. The last thing I want to hear is "it seems to be feeding alright; I can't get it to do what you're talking about". I've had it to someone who takes that approach (or, "if it only happens when you work the bolt fast, why not just work the bolt slowly").

My brass (unfired R-P) measures 0.528" at the belt and at the head. My manuals say 0.532" for belted magnum cases. I'm curious whether other people's brass is also 0.528".

I don't plan to work on the rails myself. I figure that if careful polishing will make it feed properly, then the tiniest piece of dirt will be sufficient to make it again feed improperly. One malfunction out of 10 or 20 tries tells me (fortunately perhaps) that there is a big, glaring problem with this rifle and that a competent man will be able to find out what's wrong immediately.

Before this goes out to a gunsmith, I'll be checking for the feed problem with other bullets. It could be that the big fat nose of these Hornady soft points makes them bounce off the feed ramp.

That's not to excuse Winchester for making a horrendously bad $1000 rifle. I tell you the truth, I wish I had just spent the $2000 and got a Dakota action (did I mention I'm left handed?) or $4000 on one of their completed rifles. I think I am seeing a thorogh case here of getting what I paid for; and $1000 today is the price of a cheap, low-quality, poorly built, unreliable Winchester Classic Safari Express rifle.

H. C.

Here is contact information for Mark Penrod. I strongly recommend giving him a call.



Penrod Precision

P.O. Box 307, 312 N. College

North Manchester, IN 46962

(260) 982-8385

(FAX) 982-1819



Here is Gearhead Jim's similar problem and solution.

Quote:

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I love my recent vintage Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H, but some of them need a LOT of work too. Several years ago one of the gun mags tested a 70 that was identical to mine and liked most features but gave a thumbs down becaue it wouldn't feed properly. Knowing that was just a fluke, I bought a new .375 about a year later- and it wouldn't feed. The warranty shop in Illinois worked on it a little then sent it back to the factory twice for rework, finally the factory admitted it was so bad they sent me a new gun. And that one wouldn't feed either- rounds going everywhere but into the chamber. So I sent it back to the factory. After three months they would not return my phone calls but finally sent the gun back worse than before. Bolt was full of gunk and assembled wrong, extra scratches on the barrel, bolt face looked like it had been polished by a baboon, safety sometimes wouldn't engage, and it still wouldn't feed. Truely, the most pathetic operation I have ever seen.



Mark Penrod got it working right and now I love it, but don't plan to buy one a month before the safari..

---

Chuck

Your problems are probably just magazine box and rail timing issues. A trip to a quality gunsmith WILL make your rifle feed wonderfully. It's worth having them properly tuned up even when they feed OK. Spend a little and get a lot......DJ

Here's a second recommendation for Mark Penrod. He is very talented and a great guy to work with.


Bart

marc357,

Yeah, probably a magazine problem. The only way (maybe) to get a 416 Rem to feed in a Mod. 70 is to have a narrow box, such that the sides of the magazine box are almost parallel as opposed to the more typical triangularly shaped box. The 416 is not really triangular so why would the magazine be that way? The standard triangular box does not work with a 416 at all, the first or last shell or anywhere inbetween.

The 375 is more sloped than a 416 but the present 375 magazine box maybe too wide at the rear. That allows the cartridge to get out of alignment with the axis of the receiver too much and the bolt pushes the cartridge out of the magazine crooked and doesn't get picked up by the extractor.

They are all fixable, eventually!

I'm hearing all around that Mark Penrod can do this. I guess he'll be getting a call from me next week.

H. C.

Will, that is one of the most nonsensical responses I have read in quite some time . I don't know where the 416 rem came from in this thread but I would think making the front of the box wider instead of the rear of the box narrower might be a better idea. I handled and shot a model 70 chambered for the remington 416 once apon a time that fed cartridges like it had eyes. It wasn't because the box was made narrower eigther.

Chuck

There is a formula to determine the proper width of a magazine box:



Multiply the cosine of 30 degrees (.866) by the case head (or belt) diameter, then add the head diameter to that product. For example a .375 H&H is .532 across the belt. So .866x..532 = .460 (+.532) = .992. This width should taper with the cartridge. Use the same formula for the width at the mouth. (This formula came from a RifleShooter magazine March/April 04 and is attributed to D'Archy Echols)



Get the magazine box the correct size, make sure the extractor is properly fitted, adjust the rails to release the cartridges at the proper time, make sure the follower isn't binding, use a good spring, and you usually can get a model 70 to feed even empty's smoothly.........DJ

Funny, D'Arcy built the 416 I was referring to. Go figure .

Chuck

dj, the formula came from Mauser, not D'Arcy. He developed that formula over 100 years ago. D'Arcy wrote the article about it.

D'Arcy didn't write the article and credit was given to Mr. Mauser.



Chuck

Hey, the guy is looking for advice. I didn't charge for it Neither am I a gunsmith, but....

Making the back of the box narrower or the front wider amounts to the same thing, making the rounds stack in a more parallel relationship. It is the same idea when grinding away the front of the rails to get fat cartridges to feed, except that procedure is irreversible if it doesn't work.

I had to grind away a bit of the front of the rails to get my CZ 458 to Lott conversion to feed. When I saw the new CZ Lotts, they had done the identical cuts. It's a freaking miracle!

But I don't want to argue about it. Like John Wayne said, "You do what you think is best."

Will, don't want to fight over it eigther. But there is a difference. Most likely two shots worth . Then there is the problem of holding a narrower box in place.......

Chuck