OK, as previously answered, the 700 is long enough for the 300 H&H. I believe the Vanguard action is also long enough.

So, my question is which action is better? I have never been a fan of the 700, but I know that there are many who like it. I could probably learn to enjoy a 700, or the Vanguard, but I just don't have any first hand experience with either.

What's your opinion?

Both are fine actions, but the 700 has the edge in having zillions of aftermarket parts and accessories readily available.

People can say what they want, but 700’s are about the easiest action out there to work on. They can be rough as they come from the factory, but that is easily taken care of with a minimum of work and cost.

I have used 700 actions for several of my own rifles that I have built and have NEVER had a malfunction or problem of any kind with any of them.

quote:

What's your opinion?

It's a tossup.......but I'll take the Remmy for the additional safety features (three rings) and the english threads in the receiver.

Vapo,
Please explain the three rings comment?

Here's what I know:
Both actions are push feed
The extractors are different. I don't know how to describe the Rem extractor, but almost everyone is familiar with its unique character.

The Vanguard uses something that looks like the old Sako or the Winchester push feed extractor, which I am assuming is stronger and maybe more desirable.

I agree with you about the 30-06 and no need for a faster 30 cal cartridge. It's just that I have a bunch of 300 H&H stuff, and kind of like the cartridge, and I want to do some shooting with it. I'm just looking for a reliable platform for that long cartridge, and it doesn't have to be controlled feed.

The one thing I loathe the most about a Rem 700 - namely the safety - can be replaced with a custom three-position safety, which is what I would do. I know, some guys have compared it to putting custom wheels on a yugo, but yet I doubt I could ever be satisfied with the factory set-up.

I think that with changing the safety, and maybe getting the Williams bottom metal, the Rem action could turn out pretty nice looking and functional. Maybe that's too much money for a sows ear.

KB

Someone should make a chart of bolt action features with Rem700 at one end of the spectrum and the Mauser action at the other extreme.

All the information is in De Haas' book on Bolt actions, but it is buried in the text.

The Howa has a:
1) Cartridge encasing bolt head like a Rem 700.
2) Flat bottomed receiver like a Mauser.
3) Trigger based safety like a Rem700.
4) Investment casting receiver like a Win70.
5) Extractor like a Sako, only bigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
...I have never been a fan of the 700, ... I could probably learn to enjoy a 700, ...

...I don't know how to describe the Rem extractor, but almost everyone is familiar with its unique character. ...

...one thing I loathe the most about a Rem 700 - namely the safety ...I doubt I could ever be satisfied with the factory set-up.

... think that with changing the safety, and maybe getting the Williams bottom metal, the Rem action could turn out pretty nice looking and functional. Maybe that's too much money for a sows ear. ...

Hey KB, I'm a Remington user and would recommend you stay totally away from them.

Your ideas concerning them are simply wrong because you have apparently been led astray by people that just don't know better.

However, it would be in your best interest to simply buy anything else. Any slight anomoly you might have, like a wide Flier opening a Group to the 4s, will just make you convinced you wasted your money.

So, I'd encourage you to buy the Howa or anything else that you do not already dislike. You will be much happier in the long run.

Best of luck to you with the Howa.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Vapo,
Please explain the three rings comment?
KB

It's one of Remington's claims to fame and I'm convinced it has value.....the cartridge case is surrounded by the bolt head, the barrel, and the reciever......three rings of steel and a severe overload or other serious over pressure condition is probably better controlled than in any other action.....granted it's incredibly rare that it's needed but it's there.

Remington has a lot of negatives....the extractor has been claimed to be problematic...never any of mine!!!!!

The bolt handles are claimed to come off.....well, not mine!

Folks have slandered them over the safety and trigger......and I do believe the older Remmys that required taking the safety to the fire position to open the action was a bad deal....it can be fixed for $20!!!

All the new ones come with the open on safe provision.

Now for the comments by tnekkcc:

quote:

The Howa has a:
4) Investment casting receiver like a Win70.

Not so.....the M-70 is forged and I doubt seriously that the Howa is cast!

Hot Cores comments:

quote:

So, I'd encourage you to buy the Howa or anything else that you do not already dislike. You will be much happier in the long run.

Good advice based on your own comments.



I personally don't think you'll go too wrong with either.

As for Remington's "Three Rings of Steel" advertising claim, it's just as applicable to the Vanguard/Howa.

I have a Vanguard chambered for .300 Weatherby Magnum. The .300 WM is an "Improved" version of the .300 H&H, so the latter will certainly work. The SAAMI spec max length for the .300 Weatherby is about all that'll fit in the magazine.

I'm with Hotcore, it's obvious that you hate 700's, so you'll never be happy with one. BTW, a Remington extractor will practically pull the rim off of a case if said case is stuck in the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
As for Remington's "Three Rings of Steel" advertising claim, it's just as applicable to the Vanguard/Howa.

Actually, I believe the Howa has two rings and the third has a slice out of for the extractor it so it ain’t really a full ring.

Good weapon though, and should serve the mans purpose just fine if that’s the choice he makes.

Allot about a rifle is a personal thing, and a guy should always go with what he likes and feels comfortable with.

I agree with the other two guys, if he’s starting out with the feeling that he’s settling for something inferior by getting a 700 he shouldn’t do it. Self made prophecies usually come true about 100% of the time, especially negative ones!

I would go with the 700 for a ocuple of reasons. One, it is much easier to true up the round reciever of the M700. Plus it has British Imperial threads, where the Howa has SI threads. Most folks can do metric threads, but I hate it with a capital H.

And I charge extra for metric threading/barreling jobs, as do most smiths. It takes longer and I have to swap the gears around in my lathe, which is a lot of unproductive time.

Bonus points go to the 700 for so many aftermarket accessories, where as the Howa has few.

But the Howas are good actions and people can really make them shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


Now for the comments by tnekkcc:

quote:

The Howa has a:
4) Investment casting receiver like a Win70.

Not so.....the M-70 is forged and I doubt seriously that the Howa is cast!

I have each, but I don't know how they were made.
I was reading De Haas, Howa 1500, Interarms 1500, and Smith& Wesson 1500 are the same design.
The Howa 1500 is briefly described, but the Smith and Wesson and Mossberg 1500 is described in detail,
"The receiver is of one-piece construction, probably starting as an involvement casting and then machined and finished to its final state. It has flat bottom and heavy integral recoil lug under the receiver ring. It is not to unlike the pre'64 Model 70 Winchester receiver with plenty of metal left in the right rail for rigidity.... Model 70 receiver were machined from solid bar stock, each beginning as a 7 1/2 pound billet of Chrome-Moly."

So vapodog, it looks like you were right and I was was full of shit.

The Weatherby website says the Vanguard receivers are forged and machined as one piece unit.

Some of you have guessed correctly. I do loathe the Rem 700, for many years, and I didn't realize it was so transparant. I won't go into all the reasons now, because that has been beat to death before. I try to be open minded though, and revisit the question every now and then.

The main reason I was considering the 700 is because it is long enough, without alterations. I do think I could enjoy one, with a three position safety, especially if it turned out as accurate as some claim. I'm satisfied that the extractor isn't a problem. There are just too many favorable reports verifying that. If I buy one, I'm going to have to eat some crow, because I have bad-mouthed my friends 700s for so long, I'm sure there will be payback.

I spoke with my gunsmith about this, and he didn't have a problem working with either. He had a good opinion of the Vanguard action, and has worked with them before.

Thanks for the feed-back.

KB

if the howa had all the toys that are available to the remmy we would not even be having this discussion, IMO the howa is a much better basic design, its got a much better extractor and 3 pos safety that the remmy does not.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
So vapodog, it looks like you were right and I was was full of shit.

It wasn't at all my intention to say this or even imply it. The statement was made that they were cast and I know many folks cringe at that.

I, personally have no problem with investment cast receivers! But for the sake of correctness I just pointed it out.....neither are cast.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy
The Weatherby website says the Vanguard receivers are forged and machined as one piece unit.

Yes, this makes more sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Cummins cowboy:
IMO the howa is a much better basic design, its got a much better extractor and 3 pos safety that the remmy does not.

I didn't know this.....a three position safety?

I'll accept this as correct even though I wasn't aware of this and if, in fact, this is true it throws the decision in my eyes heavily in favor of the Howa.

A general comment: The three rings of steel....

the Mauser '98 has one ring of steel completely surrounding the case head. It has functioned quite well for over 100 years!

I've had a meltdown in a Winchester push feed and the winchester action contained the case nicely without damage to the bolt or receiver. I did have to replace the extractor however.

I read Fjold's account of a savage action that fired a 308 round thru a (IIRC) 25-06 barrel and survived as well.

While I do believe the three rings of steel help make the Rem 700 an extremely strong bolt action, the advantage over the Howa is a minimal consideration. It also adds to the chambering process of barrels to be attached to the action.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
if the howa had all the toys that are available to the remmy we would not even be having this discussion, IMO the howa is a much better basic design, its got a much better extractor and 3 pos safety that the remmy does not.

CC,
It's my understanding that one of the differences in the Howa action and the Vanguard action was the safety. Only recently did Howa make the safety three-position, where the Vanguards have been that way for a long time.

Another differences between the Howa and the Vanguard - used to be - and I don't know if it still is - the factory safety didn't lock the bolt down on the Howa, but did on the Vanguard.

The after-market toys included the Timmney Trigger, which operates as a three-position safety on the Vanguard, and locks the bolt down, and did not on the older Howa actions. I don't know if it does or not on the new Howas.

Another toy - the fellow at Williams Firearms says that they will be producing bottom metal for the Howa/Vanguard in 2007.

What more does one need in after-market toys?

Regards,
KB

Here is my $.02 about the 700 Remington.
The trigger can be set up for about the best factory pull. The trigger is not tolerant of bone heads messing with it though.

I have never had trouble with the safety. Neither have my brothers. I know some do. See comments about the trigger above.

The bolt stop can be sticky and if you are not careful it can stick in the down position. Think about deburring it.
Why do you care?
If you have the safety that does not lock down the bolt handle and carry the rifle with a sling you may catch the bolt handle on a limb. When that happens you may not notice it and you will be like the Oregon elk hunter I once spoke to. Seems his hunting pals kept a straight face when he came back to camp with no bolt in his rifle. He said he knew they laughed their asses off behind his back though.
I have never lost a bolt but I have dropped one on the ground like that.

The extractors have always worked. The best insurance against extractor failures is a smooth chamber and reasonble loads.

My M700s are older and have the noisy stamped followers that I don't like. I don't like the aluminum bottom metal either

I have had 700s that had a crooked barrel or abent receiver barrel. Both ran the scope out of elevation -one down and one up. (one was a long and the other a short)

One thing you never hear much about is the rear of the magazine well in the receiver is easily opened about 1/8" longer. You may have to do a little fabrication to lengthen the magazine but it would be easy for the guys that put H&Hs in Mausers.

The plunger ejector can wedge those sharp shouldered cases into the right lug raceway as they pop out of the barrel. This can reduced by deburring the corners inside the action if you have it apart. I have notice the problem is about the worst with the .243.
The plunger ejector can also flip cases out so they strike the stock and dent it just below the rear of the ejection port. How would you like that on a custom stock? You can ease most of these problems by reducing the length of the ejector plunger spring.

The 700 Remington has been the most accurate factory HUNTING rifle I have used though.
The most accurate factory rifle of any type I have used?...A 40X