Have a question for some good gun smiths concerning the shorting of a barrel. The BATF states that a rifle barrel may be shorted to 16 inches but no shorter. They also state that if a barrel was cut down to 16 inches and the first 2 inches were drilled and ported it still would be a 16 inch barrel. Have any of you did this with out any problem with the BATF?

Don't screw around with bare minimums on anything, especially barrel length.
Not worth the risk of someone taking a look at it and busting you for suspicion that it might be too short.

-Spencer

Maybe not the same thing, but it is frequent for owners of AR15s to do something similiar to what your describing to get that cool look.
They shorten the AR's barrel to 14.5 inches and add either an flash hider or muzzlebrake to bring the total length to 16.1 inches. The hider or brake must be permenatly attached. They don't have any trouble with the BATF when they do that.
I'm not an lawyer, gunsmith, ect. But this sounds similiar to what you are proposing.

Boy, I agree with Shop Cart Racer...“splitting hairs†with the BATF is not a real smart thing to do.

The definitions used in gun laws are very nebulous (on purpose) and they allow for a huge amount of “interpretation†by agents and the courts. You may end up winning your case in the long run...but how much time and money are you willing to spend in the process just for one little inch?

When dealing with the BATF (I have an FFL) always err on the safe side if you value your freedom and your property.

I wasn't looking to try to screw the BATF or anyone or just get by on anything. I want to have a short barreled 30/30 made and wanted to do it proper. I have info from the BATF that states a 16 inch barrel is ok, so I make it 16.3 or something with a permant flash hider. I know for a fact that AR-15s and several more radical rifles are done this way all the time and are shot at federal ranges by local citizens with out any problem. It is funny when you mention doing this to a 30/30 you get a lot of "can't do it" when it is done all the time on a bunch of what the Feds call assault rifles. Just looking for on hand info before I write the BAFT about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Blob1:
I wasn't looking to try to screw the BATF or anyone or just get by on anything. I want to have a short barreled 30/30 made and wanted to do it proper. I have info from the BATF that states a 16 inch barrel is ok, so I make it 16.3 or something with a permant flash hider. I know for a fact that AR-15s and several more radical rifles are done this way all the time and are shot at federal ranges by local citizens with out any problem. It is funny when you mention doing this to a 30/30 you get a lot of "can't do it" when it is done all the time on a bunch of what the Feds call assault rifles. Just looking for on hand info before I write the BAFT about it.

People drive at 75mph all the time also...but that doesn’t mean that a cop can’t give them a ticket if he chooses to!

Any second year law student could forcefully argue that a flash suppressor is not part of a rifle barrel...and I would bet that if you asked this question of 10 BATF agents you would get nine different answers and one “gee I don’t know, I’ll have to check with my boss.â€

If you doubt what I am saying ask the BATF for a simple and understandable answer as to when a gunsmith becomes a “manufacturer†subject to Federal Excise Taxes.

quote:

Originally posted by Blob1:
I wasn't looking to try to screw the BATF or anyone or just get by on anything. I want to have a short barreled 30/30 made and wanted to do it proper. I have info from the BATF that states a 16 inch barrel is ok, so I make it 16.3 or something with a permant flash hider. I know for a fact that AR-15s and several more radical rifles are done this way all the time and are shot at federal ranges by local citizens with out any problem. It is funny when you mention doing this to a 30/30 you get a lot of "can't do it" when it is done all the time on a bunch of what the Feds call assault rifles. Just looking for on hand info before I write the BAFT about it.

What you're asking to do is quite legal, and with a a margin of erroring on the long side as you mentioned, would not be a problem.

Marlin and Rossi, just to name a couple, send rifles out everyday at that barrel length......don't sweat it.

Sometimes the paranoia of the BATF makes me wonder how some of these fellas get any sleep at night.

nothing to do with legal or feasable, but have you got any idea what the muzzle blast is going to be on a ported 16" barrel?! wow! I'm having the brake cut off my 24" 06 barrel because it was too damn loud, can't imagine it shorter.

Red

I have a Swede carbine with a 16.5" barrel. The muzzle blast is really not bad, even with "upper end" loads. But then a 6.5x55 ain't a 264 Win Mag either.

From my perspective, this is one of the simpler BATF-related questions....

The law says the barrel must be 16" long. It does not say the rifled portion of the barrel must be 16". The barrel is the ONE PIECE that includes any rifling, chamber, muzzle-brake, flash-hider, bloop-tube, etc, so long as it is truly one piece as installed/used. It doesn't even have to start out as one piece. After WWII, it was common to lengthen M-1 carbine barrels to make the minimum length by welding on a hollow tube to the end of the barrel. As soon as the tube & the barrel became one indivisible piece, the requirements of the law were met.

Barrels usually include a roughly 3/4" portion that is threaded into the action ring. Many folks don't measure that part when measuring barrel length. I once made a 16" barrel for a .222 but made it long enough so that if it was measured from the foreward end of the receiver it was 16.06 long. Just because some guy works for the BATF don't mean he has a brain.....some of these guys will measure wrong and you will spend a long time fighting it.....even though you're very right.
Food for thought.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
From my perspective, this is one of the simpler BATF-related questions....

All of us can nit-pick all day long about what the laws say or don’t say...but courts decide what they “mean†and don’t “mean.â€

I think all that any of us who cautioned him were trying to say is that it is prudent to be very careful when shortening a barrel down close to the 16†minimum.

I don’t know if you saw it or not but one of the gun mags awhile back had a story about a court that decided that a shoe string could be defined as a part to convert a semi-automatic to a full automatic machine gun under the laws. I’m not kidding! It seems that some guy had a shoe string that he somehow wrapped around the stock, action and trigger that allowed it fire in a way that the BATF and the court claimed was full automatic under the definitions of the law. It didn’t say if they confiscated the weapon or just the “evil†shoe string...but it certainly pointed out how ridiculous and petty the BATF and the courts can be at times.

I too agree it pays to be cautious when dealing with law enforcement. Having served federal law enforcement in this country and another, and both county & city law enforcement in Kalifornia, I can assure folks that trying to play a game of "technically innocent" does not pay over the long haul in terms of convenience/cost.

At the same time, it DOES pay to know exactly what the law is, and what are accepted practices in meeting the law's requirements.

Generally speaking, in measuring barrel length the accepted practice is to close the bolt or breech block, and push a rod down the barrel until it butts against the bolt or breech block or standing breech. The rod is then marked at the muzzle end of the one piece assenbly which comprises the barrel. The rod is then removed and measured to that mark, to see how much of it was in the barrel. That measurement is pretty generally accepted in law enforcement as the barrel length

BTW, I have always found BATF to be quite helpful and reasonable to deal with, so long as it was clear that I was making a good faith effort to comply with the laws they are required to both interpret & enforce. That is not to say that every agent will always be in any way reasonable in any given instance...just that they are not the Devil incarnate.

The only way to assure equity is to invent the perfect world....something quite beyond my means.

Thanks for the info, and yes barrels of this length are made quite often without any problem. Thanks trigger guard 1 for the info as I knew that it was being done and was legal.
I talked to several people who shoot the TC in 10 and 14 inch barrels in 30/30 caliber. The 10 inch is very pronounced with the blast but the 14 tones down a lot. Remember that is what reloading is all about in these short rifles; to get the best accurate shots with the lowest recoil. I can tone a 14 inch barrel down to shoot well. Don't expect it to shoot like a 12 pound rifle and target shooting is what I am going to do anyway.

As a newbe with an FFL and does some work on firearms I just looked here and might also add that when you measure whatever you measure be it rifle or shotgun that you do so with the action closed. That is with the bolt fully forward and locked up.

Hi to all.

Don

It is perfectly fine to do what you want to do. THere is no need to be scared of the ATF-just call them and ask them this question. You will find that they will tell you that the barrel on a rifle is measured from the bolt face to the muzzle. THe muzzle is the very end of the last portion of the barrel that is integral-meaning a permanant comp or flash supproessor (in states that allow them) is the muzzle. Thousands of AR 15's are sold every day that have 14.5" rifles portions and permanant comp or flash hider. For "permenant", they are usually pinned and hard soldered.

Just email the ATF with your question and they will be very helpful as long as you are polite and professional. They really are easy to work with and have, to a person, been very nice folks in my experience.

Different laws from ours here in Norway, but others have helped you at that matter,but I will inform You that even WITH ear-protection Your hearing WILL be damaged at EVERY shot from a 16" barrel sporting a muzzle-brake. And - nothing is worth that.