I almost hesitate to ask this because I don't want to start another flaming war but I really am curious. After re-reading the thread about up and coming gunmakers and engravers I noticed some got upset with the term "Best". I remember once when I started a thread on HuntAmerica about who the "Best" stockmaker was I really got blasted and ridiculed for using that word. However not many folks did say what best meant to them. This left me a bit confused.



When I say best, I mean my personal favorite. Hence the "Best" stockmaker to me was Maurice from Collee City, Washington. I have said often why I think this way, but it is because he could do so many different styles of stocks and do them all very well. I admired him greatly for that.



What does "Best" mean to you. I know there is no right or wrong answer to this but the word has to mean something to each of us. I am curious what that is.



P.S. I'm not looking for a fight of any kind as I am nearly sixty years old. Besides that I am only 6'1" tall and only weigh 260 pounds. I am sure I would be easy pickins to most everyone.

Idared



As long as I am still up I will take a stab at your question.



to me, best has more connotations than just the workmanship that a person does. Sure,it is the workmanship, but it is also the constant striving to have as much possible knowledge and skill to do the workmanship, coupled with having the courage to graciously lose potential customers due to the cost of providing the workmanship.



There can be no doubt that people pay their dues, but I think that down through history that type of courage has always paid off. Bob Loveless in the Custom Knife world would be a good example. Lynton McKenzie was a good example in the engraving world. I think David Miller has long been recognized in the Custom Gunmaking world as being a "best" maker, and there are of coure others. These people will not (or did not) compromise on what they believed was proper for the job at hand, but remain gracious in advising the customer where to go if they would like a product different from what the maker had to offer.



I think that everyone has the right to call something or someone best if they so desire. That is the subjective element. There could be objective elements as well, such as measurements to a given standard. Certainly, down through the years many gunmakers have advertized their work as being "Best" Quality work. Objective to them, and subjective to everyone else.



Bottom line. No compromise just to save a customer.



Blue

"Best" is an absolute which denigrates all others. Kind of like saying one guitar player is the best in the world when that is impossible. "Favorite" ie the word you are looking for. "Best" did apply at one time when London's top gun makers sat around a table to grade each others work and bestow their unanimous grade "Best" upon those individual guns they agreed upon.

Of course I wasn't there so flame away if you don't agree.

tiggertate

Thanks for your observation. I have a question if I may. Is it wrong then to say "Who do you consider the Best stockmaker of all time?" Does this make it all right to use the term Best ?

Let me get the qualifiers out of the way.........soon to be 57 years old, 6' even, 220 pounds, not lookin' for a fight.

In my opinion "Best", even "Best Quality", are terms that needn't be subjective if they apply to a "level" rather than a "pinnacle". I think there's a level of production in the custom gun world that can certainly be defined as "of the Best" or "Best Quality".

For my money, the circle of people that do "Best Quality" work is getting larger. It would probably take someone more discerning than myself to categorize the talent within that circle.

An interesting question might be:

Are there inherent features of certain guns that preclude them from being considered Best Quality? Or at least lower on the totem pole?

Regardless of the quality of workmanship, can a 1903 Springfield custom be considered Best Quality...... considering some features of the action that are less desirable than a Mauser or a Model 70?

In the custom world.....is a very nice sidelock better than a very nice boxlock?

GV

Its not wrong to ask but the truth is there is no best stockmaker of all time. Best meaning most produced? Best meaning highest paid per hour? Best meaning highest paid for a single stock? Best meaning best wood used? Best meaning your or my favorite? How long do I go on?

Tiggertate:

Read the quote in my post. It is a definition I can live with.

I'll use the term "Best Grade" to define what goes into a custom rifle that I consider to be worthy of that term, regardless of who the craftsman might be who builds it.

For my purposes, a "Best Grade" rifle is a complete rifle, and I mean COMPLETE. It's built from the inside-out. Functional considerations take center stage. Everything that can be done to the rifle's mechanism to make it as functional, reliable, durable, and accurate as possible IS done. Nothing is overlooked. Old-school concepts that cannot be improved upon are retained, while new concepts that can improve the finished product and take it to the next level are embraced. Materials are the finest obtainable. Balance is impeccable. Compromises are unacceptable. Rounded areas are truly round, and flat areas are truly flat. There are no ripples in the profile of the barrel. Finishes and finishing techniques not only enhance appearance, but act as a legitimate and lasting barrier against the elements. Accuracy is first-rate, and the rifle retains its zero under all conditions. The rifle is built as a system, with the overriding philosophy that form follows function.

A "Best Grade" rifle is the sort of rifle that fits the owner perfectly, and becomes a hunting companion rather than a tool. It's an instrument of precision and beauty that bespeaks quality, and is a treasured possession that the owner hopes to never part with. In his eyes, it cannot be improved upon.......

AD

Well, I'll dig my hole a little deeper. I liked the idea that the builders sat around and bestowed the "Best Gun" status on individual pieces based upon their collective inspection of the guns being offered. I think the term gets a little watered down when the consumer gets to make the judgement.

Idared, I will try to approach your question from another point. I hope that there will never be a Best.
My point in this is that each craftsman is going to have his own little touch that he feels is an improvement over whom he feels was the best.
I have been very lucky to have handled some guns from some of the craftsmen from this forum and they are works of art, are they the best? I think that these men are humble enough to say No. They will point to the craftsman before them and their work.
I think my whole point is that when you are admiring these fellow's work and commenting about it, they always seem to say, well if you like this you should see so and so's work, he does it like this.

i would hope that when we say "best" anything we are actually saying or at least implying "best in my experience". i have not seen the work of "all" gunsmiths;however, in my experience cliff sanders of lake placid,fl is the "BEST". please allow me one additional observation. unless one is attacked by name, i don't see how one can be offended by opinions on this site. if you are, i fear you are wasting your time and the time of many others. GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!!!

The term "best guns", I thought, came from the English gun trade in its heyday. It meant guns from Purdey, H&H, etc that had no discernable flaw and which were as perfect and in accordance with the ideal standards as seen by the trade as a whole at the time as could be measured. In other words, if there was a ripple in a barrels finish, it was replaced. There were no toolmarks even on the inside of the locks/firing mechanism. The trigger pull was exactly what the customer had ordered. No checkering overruns even under inspection with a loupe. Balance point on the hinge pin or exactly where specified by the customer. LOP, DAC, DAC, cast, and pitch of stock exact. No proud wood or proud metal on the gun (i.e. wood to metal fit was exact). This was all based on the double gun British trade of the time, and some makers offered best quality guns and, at a substantially lower cost, second quality guns. If there was a microscopic checkering overrun or engraving flaw, or the barrels' patterns converged at 45 yards instead of 40 yards, they still sold it instead of scrapping the parts and starting again. So if this is the historical context, then I'd say best materials and no visible or measureable variance from the industry ideal defines best quality.
Steve

to me, "best" means top 5%... to consider it to be singluar denotates "unique".

That top 5% measurement is VERY subjective. To me it means fit, finish, function, sizing, and grade. Engravings, to me, mean nothing,


the catch here is that an HH best has no OBJECTIVE meaning to a, say, jigby best or even a searcy best. It just means it's in the top shelf OF THAT maker. My "best" quality, that I make, is probably equilivant to a searcy field grade, as I do not have the skill and experience, yet, that he does. That being said , my "best" is a pretty darn good rifle.

Best could also discuss things like checkering.... if it has handcut, with over runs, it's not "the best" rather, it may still be in the "best" grade, as that's an acceptable margin.

jeffe

Many thanks for your observations but I guess I am still a bit confused. Actually sometimes it probably doesn't take all that much.

Let's try this again. If I was to ask what is the best pickup truck made most would have an answer. If I asked what the best scope made was I could bet what the largest responses would be, and yes most folks would have an answer. I doubt there would be much tap dancing around the subject either.

Now let's go to people. Doesn't anyone participate in polls of one sort or another? When you vote for elected officials aren't you voting for what you feel is the best candidate. When someone asks who the best quarterback of all time was, it isn't meant to make light of all the other ones in history, just simply pick the best of a very good group. I'd say Rick Mears was the greatest Indy driver in history. Does that mean I think AJ Foyt and Mario Andretti were garbage? Of course not, I just happen to think Rick Mears was better than either at Indy. Actually he wasn't my favorite Indy driver of all time, but in my own mind Mears was the best at Indy. Do I think there will be a new best someday, maybe. In fact it is quite possible. But, as of today I think Mears was the best. Do I expect everyone else to agree with me on this, of course not. That's why I said to begin with that there is no right or wrong answer. It isn't a test, but more like an opinion, which is very subjective. Most folks have an opinion on nearly everything. Why is it that some tend to tap dance around the question when asked what best means to them.

Anyway, this is what best means to me. Picking one item or personality as the best of a group of good or very good. I guess I am the only one who thinks that way.

"Best" means to me, the "Best Deal" I ever got on a gun. And my wife found out about it from my "best" Ex-friend by accident. Was she ever looking for a "fight" when I got home. I'm 54 years old and weighed 185 pounds before she started chewing my ass out for buying that gun! Now I'm down to 170 with hardly any cushion to sit on. She told me I "best" figure out a way to explain just how and where I got the money for it. I "best" go now, "lest" my sound reasoning for buying it elude me. Good shooting! Mike

Idared:
I understand it is the nature of the game and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It is reality in my trade to get compared with every other engraver on the planet and I am not whining about it. I just don't like having my nose rubbed in it. Am I being too thin skinned? Perhaps.

Idared,
There often is some confusion in the gunmaking field regarding the term best or best guns. The noted London builders somewhat coined the phrase Best Guns and it was a label that was placed on the cream of the crop of their firearms that they produced each year. I do not know if Holland and Holland continues to do that or if they stick that label on all of them. Steve Heilman produces one or two a year and he refers to them as best guns. I know Steve is not saying his are the best but they are the best rifle he can produce. With his skills, they also rank in the top echelon of any group.

Whenever anyone states that X builder produces the "best" available, it is just their opinion and whether it be brand loyalty or just supporting their past purchases, it has little merit other than that person has some first hand knowledge of that firearm. I think it virtually impossible in this day and age to assume we can pronounce honestly and with no error that such and such builder is the best. I do think we can give a good valuation regarding levels of accomplishment. Your brother gave what is probably the best definition and it just applies to a level of acheivement. I do agree with your best stockmaker choice though.

To digress just a bit from your topic and tell you a bit more about Maurice, I have to refer to the one gun I own that he stocked. The metalwork looks like it grew in the wood. Yet when you take out the action screws (should be called bolts, screws are pointy),the bottom metal falls free like it wasn't even touching. The finish and checkering is flawless and he designed checkering patterns that are absolutely scary to execute. Roger has one of them in his possession and we may be able to get him to post a picture of it. You are right too, he could do anything, bolt actions, shotguns, single shots, you name it and they would be right and correct and they would be a perfect fit for the person who was buying them. No comprimises, nothing to make it easy on Maurice, just what the owner wanted. One day soon I need to drive over and see you. Drink some coffee and see your projects.

Idared,

Sorry, I thought somebody had jumped on you with some confusion about the historical meaning of a "best" gun, a la the London gun trade at the turn of the century.

No, when I say something's the best, it's usually the one I like best, too. Though every once in a while I'll admit that I may have a sentimental favorite, but that something else is what the unbiased experts in the field would choose.

Steve

I think this says it all.
web page

Being in a trade where best is used frequently, when I hear the phrase "Best" I do not think of only one outstanding individual or product. I take the phrase to mean literally a higher level of fit and finish than one would ordinarily find. The phrase best when used by most, is only a matter of opinion unless there are published industry standards that would rate a product or trade. Just my 2 cents......

Alan

I find myself in total agreement with Tiggertate.



There can be no doubt that in its highest form, custom rifle building is an art form. Sooo! Only a rifle that is truly a work of art could ever be considered as "The Best", and since art comes from within that means that there are no boundaries!



The fundamental problem with awarding the blue ribbon to a single piece, or craftsman lies in the exclusion of all the other greats in the field. Therefore subjectivity is essential in such a futile and narrowing process.



Idared wrote: "When I say "BEST", I mean my personal favorite."



THAT is the answer to your own question... and is also exactly what "THE BEST" means to me.