For building a custom gun are the ones made in Argentina (FMAP) as strong as the ones made in Germany (DWM)? The metalwork looks good.





Thanks, Rob

If you have had them tested I can't argue the results. But I quess the question then is, are they still hard enough?

The question is to what hardness did those actions test? Please enlighten us. Most are too soft for today's powders.

RecoilRob,
Maurice Ottmar built modern rifles from both actions and said either was suitable to the task.

I'm just curious, where did Mr.Ottmar get his engineering and metallurgy degrees.

The ability to create an artistically pleasing firearm doesn't make him an authority on action strength or suitability.

Even the DWM usually should be reheatreated or carburized or whatever it is called when they are brought up to the proper hardness again. I found this out here recently, and confirmed with gunsmith and my 7mm mag on a DWM argentine is not being shot until I make sure it is hard enough that I am not going to get headspace and set the lugs back.

Red

PS
I forgot to mention, the legal need to produce rifles that are safe for factory ammunitions means that the better gunsmiths out there tend to at least know whether or not an action is safe. they may not know th metallurgical details or be able to tell you the chemical makeup or whatever else, but they usually know (or have a way of checking) if the action is suitable for the chambering.

Some gunsmiths as a part of the whole deal have any mauser action that they use re-hardened. there was a great thread on all this here a little while back, regarding the need for it on different actions. that was why I decided to stop shooting my 7mm till I could find out for sure.

Red

Huntingcat,

He didnt have either, he just had an a wealth of experience in using these actions with great success. It is called getting your hands dirty type of education. He did a lot more than build stocks, he was an accomplished metalsmith.



I have an engineering degree and have a great deal more respect for those who earn their position and knowledge by doing than by reading and flashing a document.

Red, the DWM is equivalent to cold rolled steel and reheat treating is a waste of time. There isnt enough carbon to worry about. If you do a lot of work on the recoil lugs, or surface grinding, then some surface hardening may be justified.

Heat treating may be a waste but I wouldn't consider carburizing them a waste.

Chic,

Do you know what "cold rolled" steel is?

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the DWM is equivalent to cold rolled steel and reheat treating is a waste of time. There isnt enough carbon to worry about.

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From that quote evidently not. I have some cold rolled SAE 1050 in the shop. Would I be able to heat treat that? Come to think of it I believe there is some cold rolled SAE1037 out there too! Can I heat treat that?

What benefit would carburizing those two COLD ROLLED steels be?

By the way, what is your engineering degree in, Civil engineering?

ASS_CLOWN

blue,

Fine!

By the way, what were the hardness figures on those actions you had checked? Also of interest would be the area(s) of the action that were hardness checked.

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As for the type of steel, IN Walsh's book, he points out (from tests he had done) that the outer core of most mausers has more carbon in it than does the inner core

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That would seem to indicate that these mausers were case carburized.

ASS_CLOWN

ASS_CLOWN/ScottS/Axel/mauser/ToddE, et all,

Turd Boy, you are, without a doubt, a world class piece of troll shit. It's too bad your mother forgot to flush the day you came into the world.

What's all this crap around my feet... oh yeah, that can of worms I opened.

OK, so the South American ones are not as hard as the German ones but they are hard enough?



Is there a website that explains the processes of heat treating, hardening and carbeurizing and how they relate to each other? When you should do what?
Red, do you remember the name of the thread you spoke of?

I assume a topnotch gunsmith will know what to do, but would he accept a non-DWM 1909 to begin with?


Thanks, Rob

Rob,

I think what this all boils down to is this, when in doubt, heat treat. I have two rifles built on Argy actions, a 7x57 and a 257 Roberts. Neither were heat treated, "carburized" or "rehardened". Both have a shitload of rounds thru them with no lug setback or any other problems. That's just my experience. If you're building a high end custom rifle, have the action tested for hardness, heat treat as neccessary and be done with it. I've confronted the "penny wise, pound foolish" scenario many times. WTF, it's only
money and if the money buys you peace of mind, it's money well spent.

Good advice from both of you, thanks.

Rob

Save yourself a TON of bother and get a good quality VZ24, or a Colombian FN. My DWM 1908 Brazilian set back the lugs after 100 odd rounds of 30-06 level 300 H&H. Locked it solid. Admittedly the smith cut back the action a little too much. I replaced the action with a VZ24 and have had trouble free motoring since then. Those early actions are OK for 7X57, 7X64, 30-06 type cartridges, as long as you don't cut through the case hardening you are OK.

Pete

D'Arcy's testimony speaks for itself, and I consider him to be about as scientific in his approach to riflebuilding as anyone who has ever practiced in the trade.

Dave Miller is also very scientific, very pragmatic, doesn't cling to tired old dogma, and is adamant about "reheat-treating" (read carburizing) Mauser actions. When I have asked him previously about this matter, his answer was, "ALWAYS!"

This is what my friend Jim Carmichel said about a few 1909s of his acquaintance; this from his book, "The Modern Rifle", page 5: "Some time back I bought three beautifully finished 1909 Mausers which had been built for the Argentine Army. The rifles had never been issued and were as perfect as the day they left the factory. The only time they had ever been fired was the one time they were test-fired in the German plant. The metal in the receivers was so soft, however, that the single test firing had mashed the front two locking lugs into the receiver so far that the safety lug had come to bear. Without that safety lug additional firing would probably have set the lugs back further until is became impossible to open the bolt, or much worse, an excessive headspace conditioned worsened until, at last the case head blew off and wrecked the rifle and shooter."

The above doesn't mean that Jim doesn't have faith in the 1909 action, when in fact his famous David Miller Company custom .338 Win. Mag. is itself built on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action, and Jim has literally used this rifle around the world on over 200 big game animals over the course of the last 25 years. But you can be sure that the action was properly rehardened, and has suffered no lug setback in all these years.

AD

Inspection of 1909 Argentine Mauser Action


I live in the land of Boeing, north of Seattle. From time to time I have a Boeing employee as a customer for my custom rifle business. About 10 years ago I had customer that worked in Boeings inspection department. As most of you know Boeing builds airplanes for both the commercial airlines and the military. Boeing really doesn�t make the airplanes anymore; they subcontract manufacturing of individual parts and then assemble them into a product. To insure that the subcontractor has used the proper material in their part, Boeing has an inspection department where they can analyze the part. The process is called spectra-chemical analysis. This is basically how it works; you place a part into a vacuum chamber and remove the air. A probe comes down and make contact with the part and causes a spark. They capture and analyze the gases from the spark in the vacuum chamber. You get a computer readout that�s as long as your arm, every trace element is listed in order of content with percentages. At the end of the readout is the nearest material available.

My customer did this process with a DWM 1909 Argentine receiver. In the end, the closest material available was 1018 cold rolled steel.

DWM case hardened the cam and locking lug surfaces. The depth of the case ranges from .002 to .008 according to Kuhnhausen ( page 70, The Mauser Bolt Action). If you try to remachine a locking lug surface you might get into trouble. Just remember, after firing a Mauser 98 and you can�t open the bolt, you might have a bolt set back.

These actions were built prior to WW1 with the materials of the day. I try to stay with cartridges in the 55,000 psi range and below. The new series of cartridges from both Remington and Winchester are out of the question for 1909's (Ultra and WSM).

Hi Blue,

The printer tells me that it should be in next week. I don't want to sell any until I have them in hand. This project has been a learning experiance for me. I thought It would take 2 or 3 months to write and a month to print. Crazy me...

Mark