The double rifle I acquired awhile back is giving me fits. It came with brand new RCBS standard dies. Looked like they had never been used. The two boxes of Bertram brass were also new. So down to the reloading bench I went. Carefully setting up the dies by the letter since this was a new cartridge to me apparently wasn't quite good enough though. The sized, trimmed, etc. cases would not allow the gun to snap shut. They seemed to fit fine although they stopped about 1/16 to 1/32 short of being flush with the rear of the chamber. The book showed OAL case was 2.56 inches. I trimmed to 2.54 inches. I measured the rim, base, neck, and all were within limits of the Cartridges of The World. In fact the cases were tight enough in the barrels I could tell the extractors or ejectors, whichever they are, were tugging them out of the barrel. (1) How do I find out what caliber this gun is without slugging the barrels? (2) How can I find out if the RCBS dies were not made to specs? (3) Am I doing something wrong or failing to do something that is different when reloading for this gun? And I'm still looking for information on this rifle. ALL help appreciated. Thanks, Mike

Make chamber casts to be certain of the size of the guns chambers.

FourTails,

I had similar problems with my 470 NE Encore with certain types of brass and bullets. A-Square brass would not fit in the chamber and would stick out 1/16" to 1/32" like yours did. None of the the other brass I used did this (Bell, Kynoch and Federal).
I also had this same problem when I tried to use some 480 gr .475 cast bullets.
Since this is a such an unusual caliber you might not have the option of trying different brass is I did.
On some of the cast loads I would forcibly snap the action shut and fire with no problems.

Mike,
(notice, I am replying and being helpful )

The fastest was to get there from here is to do a couple things.

1: order some cerrosafe from brownells and make a chamber cast
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=384

2: make DARN sure the chambers have no oil, then try inserting the case BACKWARDS to engage the extractors/ejectors (i am betting on extractors) and see what the rim thickness it... if this appears to be close, lets move to 3

3: paint a caase to 2 in dykem (blue machinist marking) or with a "sharpie" marker.... insert into the chamber while wet (dykem) or dry(marker) and "jam" the cases in, and "try" to close the gun. This should show you perdactly where it's hitting/binding.

4: have you called the previous owner and asked him if it was a REALLY tight chamber (this is a negative in a double)

5: examine the painted cases, look for contact at the neck/shoulder slope/shoulder, at the BASE (usually) of the brass (right above the rim) and then at the rim (2 above)

6: if all else fails, make a "snapcap" by cutting off (first only do one) a piece of brass 1 to 1.5" long, from rim up, and (measure diameter at cut and WRITE IT DOWN)trying closing the gun on this. If it closes, compare with the cut diameter you measured.


It is possible (I've seen it on newer gun) that the chamber is tighter or is made for a specific brass, which may be thicker or thinner, or it's just a custom chamber, and it's not quite close enough.

if the snap caps close, then at least the rim thickness is fine. These might should be the painted ones, so you can see if it's got the right taper??


What's the parent case on this?

Does the gun close fair easily when empty?

best of luck

jeffe

One thing to keep in mind about older German and Austrian guns is that basically no two of 'em have the same chamber measurements, and there are usually no caliber markings on them anywhere. With that said, if you can describe the various marks and numbers on the underside of the barrels, or post a picture or two, we might be able to hazard a guess as to the chambering. A chamber cast is the only sure way, though.

There were several 10,75mm straight case German cartridges varying from 50mm to 70mm in length and with head diameters varying from about 11,9mm (Collath) to 13mm (Mauser) - ref. Dixon: European Sporting Cartridges, Vol 1. Yours could be almost any one of them and the Bertram brass might also be slightly oversized. These oldies are a particular hobby of mine and I'd be happy to help if I can.

Steve Meyer
Missouri

Here's what I've got accomplished so far. Or I may have gone a step backwards. Upon recommendation and my request for a private gunsmithing lesson, one of our esteemed members suggested we start the cheap way first. Take a little off the shell holder at a time and see how it goes. Since that was the least expensive route to go. It worked somewhat but still had a long way to go. I milled as much as I thought it would stand and still hold the shell in place. I was wrong! Changed shell holder and shimmed under the case with pop cans for good fit on make due shell holder. Shell holder worked fine. Next milled bottom of sizing die (ouch!) approx. .030 and smoothed out edges. But still short. So I said,"here goes" and put a case in the drill press, got the mill file and away I went. Base diameter right above the rim was .478 starting out and I ended up taking it down to .472 to get a smooth extraction. I stopped at about .4725, or thereabouts, and used emery paper to smooth up the cases. Later tomorrow evening after work I'm going to take a cut-off wheel on the dremmel tool and whack one of the cases in half to determine how much case thickness I have left where I did the handy work. I will also try and get some pictures of the proof marks on the underside of the barrels. Some of the markings are: (1) Crown with star in center over letter G. (2) Three somethings? that look like the Kiel (W. German) markings, (3) 2 ea. West German Spread Eagles with no letters below them, (4) Crown w/star in center and letter U below, (5) Letters FH? or EH? together by foream lug, (6) and the letter W by itself, (6) number 6749 on both barrels by extractors and the number 20GG or 2066 by forearm lug on barrel. I will be ordering a chamber cast kit from Brownells to verify just exactly what I've got here and I guess send it to RCBS or CH-4D to get a sizer die made. I want to thank all of those who have contributed so much in this and will keep you posted on the outcome. Thanks again, Mike

I wonder if you could use a 7x65 case an neck it up to .423 and have what you need..Horneber makes the 7x65,,,but I am just guessing on this count...get the chamber cast, in fact make a couple of them for each barrel and send them to C&H or RCBS..Better yet send them along with the dies that do not work and let RCBS figure it out. Also send them some of that Bertram brass and explain the situation...Apparantly both barrels were chambered with the same reamer as you have the same problem with both barrels, which is normal of course, but is worth noting to RCBS..

Well done... With smooth extraction starting at .472" head diameter it does certainly sound like it's chambered for the Collath round at a nominal 11,9mm (.468"). Another candidate for cases would be 9,3x74R brass; perfect for head size and less problematical for expanding to 10,75 at 65mm. With brass that's smaller at the base to start with, you might not need a new sizing die.

Another not so happy note is that RCBS no longer does custom die work, but CH-4D and Hornady both do.

Any pictures of your rifle? I'd love to see what it looks like!

Steve,
RCBS DOES still do customs... i talked with them less than 2 months ago... it's a large profit center.. give em a call

jeffe

Excellent!

I can't get my pictures downloaded on this site. There are pictures still on Cabela's web site. Go to Cabela's, scroll down to Retail Stores, scroll to Dundee, MI, scroll down to Gun Library, scroll to Fine Rifles, and Click on H. Sherping that shows SOLD, then click on more information. It will give you an idea of what it looks like. The engraving looks much better than shown and is really nice. Now if I can get it regulated with a good load I'll be in business. If I can get some up close pictures downloaded I'll post them. Mike

Ah, that rifle - yes, I had ogled that one several times on the Cabela's site and it looks like a peach. If the bores are anything like the outside, you have quite a find. It will be interesting to see what loads it likes and particularly so since there are good bullets available in the 347 gr Woodleighs made for the 10,75x68. Very cool.

bpesteve, since the Cartridges of The World listed a 205 grain bullet I'm going to try and work up a 44-40 200 grain bullet. The .428 should rezise to .424 quite easily and the company (Mid-Kansas Cast) that makes them does a real nice job of casting. I'm hoping for 1900 FPS with about 42 or 43 grains of IMR 3031. We will see how the leading is and grouping as I progress. Starting out with 40 grains and working my way up. I am afraid to go with a much heavier bullet than the 205 grain listed as this is going to increase pressures dramatically, that is, if I push for a decent velocity with the load. I don't want the football pass trajectory. What I'm looking for is a nice mid-range shooter, 100-150 all day long, that any self-respecting animal would be proud to be shot with. I'll be sending for the Chamber Cast from Brownells tomorrow. Still can't get the pictures posted here on the gun. I think my camera has gone bonkers. Have you had any luck on determining any history or particulars from the proofs I described? Thanks, Mike