After the SAKO explosions and reading that some custom smiths, D'arcy for one, do not build off stainless actions for various reasons. Who here would build off of a stainless action?
Just curious what the crowd thinks

No, stainless steel is not inherently weak. The SAKO problem was a bad batch of barrel steel.There are choices for a few different types of stainless steel.

The Sako explosions didn't happen because of the material, they happend because of the manufacturing process. Just wanted to clarify. Hopefully someone else will chime in about your question.

Patriot, I'm a Michael Savage fan myself.....

There have been instances of stainless barrels rupturing under extremely cold, i.e., - 30F weather, but most guys don't hunt in that sort of cold weather, unless they're hunting muskox or polar bear.

For a big game rifle that I might use anyplace, I have come full circle and prefer blued steel. I like the feel of a chrome-moly steel action, and there's less galling to worry about, plus I like the looks and tone of bluing. Birchwood-Casey 'Sheath' has worked well to keep the rust away for me for over thirty years. I've had more problems with wood and wood finishes than I have blued-steel.

But I wouldn't turn my nose up on a stainless action and/or barrel, either. I've used stainless on many, many hunts with excellent results. I love Hart stainless barrels, and my next varmint rig is going to be built on one of those, likely on a chrome-moly action.........

AD

Fumbler ,"manufacturing process" ??They may never admit it either way but my analysis was that the failure started at the ID and was a material problem.I descussed the whole problem at some length when the failures occurred. Crucible Steel's 416R is good to -40 F [-40C].

I would have to agree with Mr. Day.

There is a distinct difference in feel between a Cr-Mo and SS action when closing and opening the bolt.

In fact, a 4140 Chrome Moly steel action with a high quality satinless barrel may yet be the ultimate combo. I'm inclined to think so after shooting over 1K rounds through a SS Krieger-barrelled pre-64 Model 70 in Highpower competition. Those barrels get HOT during the rapid fire stages of the match, and also during the prone slow fire stage when I tend to shoot my 22 shots in 12 minutes or so.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Fumbler ,"manufacturing process" ??They may never admit it either way but my analysis was that the failure started at the ID and was a material problem.I descussed the whole problem at some length when the failures occurred. Crucible Steel's 416R is good to -40 F [-40C].

In a press release Berretta claimed the cause was switching to a different lube in their hammer forging process.
I'm no expert or anything, but they made it sound like it wasn't the steel.

quote:

I love Hart stainless barrels, and my next varmint rig is going to be built on one of those, likely on a chrome-moly action.........

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Alan you speak often of hunting rifles...Echols/M70 etc.

What about Varmint Guns, do you use a rem 700 for varmint guns, they make me cringe but they seem to be what people mostly use for Varmint shooting ??

To answer the question I have gotton rid of my stainless rifles as I prefer the feel of chrome moly actions.

they seem smoother......I am not saying I will never own another stainless, but I prefer blued.

quote:

Birchwood-Casey 'Sheath' has worked well to keep the rust away for me for over thirty years.

It has worked for me too since about 1963.......

As a metallurgist I would really like to know the details of the SAKO problem.416 is a free machining grade and therefore has high sulphur which limits the amount of hammering that can be done.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
What about Varmint Guns, do you use a rem 700 for varmint guns, they make me cringe but they seem to be what people mostly use for Varmint shooting ??

There's nothing about Model 700s that make them better for varminting applications. Use a Winchester, CZ, or Ruger.....

Hell, the best varmint rifle is a scoped, flat top AR15 with a 24 to 26 inch barrel, free floating forearm, bipod, and a 30 round magazine. Their accuracy now virtually matches that of any bolt action short of a benchrest gun. I know that doesn't help you in Australia, but that's what I would build if I had lots of rats to shoot.

PC, I've owned a LOT of Model 700s over the years, including a couple of dedicated varmint rifles in 222 Rem. & 223 Rem. But I really don't hunt with Model 700s anymore. Quite honestly, I think the Model 700 is entirely overrated.

My current 223 Rem is a Weatherby MK V 'Special Varminter' with a 22" semi-heavy barrel and synthetic stock, which is a very nice factory rifle. It's still light enough to carry all day and handle quickly, yet it's very steady.

For a custom 223 Rem. (only varmint cartridge I use) I'm going to employ a push-feed Model 70 action off of one of the Model 70 carbines (built in the late '80s) in 223 Rem. I have a #4 Hart barrel on hand, and I'm going to send the components to Hill Country Rifles for completion. I want a varmint rifle that matches operation and function of my big game rifles, thus the Model 70 action. I'm even sticking with the factory Model 70 trigger, which will, of course, be fully adjusted.

And besides, anyone who thinks a Model 70-based rifle won't shoot simply isn't familiar with the capabilities of a fully tuned and blueprinted Model 70 with a premium barrel.....

http://www.hillcountryrifles.com

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For varminting, I use a Colt AR-15 Accurized Rifle.

Basically an HBAR with a 24" SS, 1 in 9" twist barrel, that will shoot Federal 69 grain match ammo into one hole as fast as I can move the cross hairs onto the target and squeeze the next one off.

I'll put this rifle against any bolt rifle on any prairie any day. And bet green money that more dogs die to this one than that one.

Alen,

I think the Rem 700 is overated as well.......but it seems in Australia at least for a "varmint"gun an easy road to follow, as you probably have read I have purchased a Rem 700 .243 in a chrome moly action, I got rid of my stainless rem 700 22/250 as I do not like the "sandy feel"of stainless actions

Maybe I should have looked at a weatherby, but I never thought to.

I don't doubt the PF M70 won't shoot. If cz had a proper .308 length dedicated action thats the way I would have Jumped as my big game guns are cz's.

Rems do seem to shoot well all the same.

The Bolt head set up amazes me, are they the only company with a sodlered/brazed bolt head ??

Correct me if there is some huge advantage to this that I am ignorant to folks !!

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I'm going to send the components to Hill Country Rifles for completion.
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Allen, I would be interested in your review of the rifle upon it's completeion. If you recall, I inquired with you awhile back about Hill Country Rifle.

I to have a .223 M70 pushfeed in the back of the safe for a future project. Thanks, Dennis

Dennis, I'm not sure when I'll launch this project, but I'll keep you posted. For hunting rifles, I'm not so willing to take a chance on working with new guys anymore, but for a varmint rifle, I'm willing to give Hill Country a try.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Alen,

I think the Rem 700 is overated as well.......but it seems in Australia at least for a "varmint"gun an easy road to follow, as you probably have read I have purchased a Rem 700 .243 in a chrome moly action, I got rid of my stainless rem 700 22/250 as I do not like the "sandy feel"of stainless actions

Maybe I should have looked at a weatherby, but I never thought to.

I don't doubt the PF M70 won't shoot. If cz had a proper .308 length dedicated action thats the way I would have Jumped as my big game guns are cz's.

Rems do seem to shoot well all the same.

The Bolt head set up amazes me, are they the only company with a sodlered/brazed bolt head ??

Correct me if there is some huge advantage to this that I am ignorant to folks !!

Remington has been making those bolts the same way since 1948 on all of their centerfire rifles based on the 721-722 design and I have NEVER heard of a bolt head falling off any of the millions of those rifles out there...have you?

The 700 bolts are machined from solid bar stock, with the exception of the handle which is a casting (the only cast part on a 700 action). The bolt head is not only brazed on but is also pinned in place and also retains the firing pin bushing.

The process Remington uses to attach the handle and bolt head to the bolt body is quite a bit more involved and precise that what is normally conjured up in your mind when you think of “soldering†something.

I would think that if there was a problem with any part of the bolt assembly that Remington, and the shooting public, would have heard about it sometime during the last 58 years. Perhaps I missed it, but I have heard of no such problem.

I've never heard of a bolt head coming off, either. Bolt handles, yes, but not bolt heads.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I've never heard of a bolt head coming off, either. Bolt handles, yes, but not bolt heads.

AD

I have heard all the stories about 700 bolt handles coming off, but have personally seen only two...and both of those were Holland after market handles that the owners had had silver soldered on. I did personally witness a guy beating on his 700 bolt handle to get a stuck case removed, and the handle didn’t fall off.

Remington machine proofs each bolt handle to make sure the joint is strong before it leaves the factory. That pin-punch mark on the underside of the handle root is the proof mark for that operation.

If a guy doesn’t care for 700’s that is certainly his right...but to base that dislike on a fear that the actions are weak or the bolts are going to fall apart is ridiculous at best.

Rick, I agree. I've owned about 90 Model 700s over the years, and I've never had a bolt handle problem or an extraction problem with any of them. Feeding problems on occasion, but nothing else.

I also think this perceived need to go with a Sako-type extractor is totally misguided, as Layne Simpson so thoroughly pointed out in an issue of "Rifle" some years ago........

AD

I have heard all the stories about 700 bolt handles coming off, but have personally seen only two...and both of those were Holland after market handles that the owners had had silver soldered on. I did personally witness a guy beating on his 700 bolt handle to get a stuck case removed, and the handle didn’t fall off.

Remington machine proofs each bolt handle to make sure the joint is strong before it leaves the factory. That pin-punch mark on the underside of the handle root is the proof mark for that operation.

If a guy doesn’t care for 700’s that is certainly his right...but to base that dislike on a fear that the actions are weak or the bolts are going to fall apart is ridiculous at best.[/QUOTE]

Rick....I am just wondering why the do it mate

It works no doubt, but it has to be a cheaper way of doing things than a bolt head that is integral with the bolt body, the latter would seem a "more expensive option" and being a laymen with gunsmithing not as good......unless there is an advantage to it that has not been pointed out to me yet ??

I had one of the very first Remington M700 rifles in 7m/m Rem Mag to ever come off their assembly line. (Actually, I still have it, but now it has a stainless barrel chambered for 7 m/m Weatherby Mag; in between for a number of years it was a .404 Barnes Supreme).

When I first got the rifle I had no loading data for it (there wasn't any available yet) so I called my old acquaintance P.O. Ackley and asked him for data suggestions. He told me just to use 7m/m Weatherby data.

Even I knew better than that, so I reduced the load 5 grains and started there, with 4831 (the original 4831, before the IMR and H designations) and 160 gr.Speer bullets.

The first shot completely froze the action, solid. I guess I could have started by taking the barrel off to open the bolt, but in those days was younger, dumber, and stronger. So, I whacked the bolt handle with a 2x4.

Result? I was then holding a rifle with a frozen action and NO bolt handle. Turned out the bolt handle had been very poorly soldered in place (less thn 40% of the contact surfaces had ANY solder).

When I finally got the barrel off and the bolt open, I did some checking. Could probably have fitted a 209 primer in the primer pocket of the case. A close look at the barrel throat showed there virtually wasn't any.

So, I throated the barrel...even free-throated it a bit a la Weatherby. Brazed the bolt handle back on instead of re-soldering it. Bolt handle has stayed on ever since.

Still, and all, I have always found Remington varmint rifles to be atleast as accurate as most of their competitors as they come out of the box. These days, with the current production Savages, that is possibly no longer the case.

It is, of course, very possible and not too difficult to accurize almost any of the others to a point of complete satisfaction. It IS still generally easier to get after-market stuff for the Remingtons, though.

Pretty much everything out there will shoot very well with ammo that suits it, a good nut on the trigger ("gun-nut"), and a few appropriate tweaks.

Everyone has their favorites but in reality, there are probably few if any modern rifles that are clearly superior over ALL their competitors as they come from the factory.

PC,

Brother, Mike Walker didn’t bother consulting with me when he designed these things...so I don’t have a definitive answer for you, and since Remington considers just about anything and everything except their phone number as a proprietory secret I doubt you will get an answer from them either.

Remington doesn’t use castings or forgings in their receivers like allot of other companies do...and everything, except the bolt handle, is machined from solid bar stock. Perhaps, it is more economical, easier, and more accurate to machine the bolt as separate pieces (cylinder, head, and firing pin bushing,)than it is to do so as one piece.

What evidence do you have that this is somehow inferior to bolts on other brands of rifles?

If the bolt construction of these rifles really bothers you that much I would suggest that you don’t buy one. Just remember, this thread started out discussing “Sako blow-upsâ€...are we to assume that because some Sako’s blew up that all Sako’s are poorly designed and are inferior in manufacturing and materials?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
What evidence do you have that this is somehow inferior to bolts on other brands of rifles?

And here we get to the crux of the matter. So many people with ZERO metallurgical, welding, machining, or manufacturing engineering experience simply regurgitate what they hear w/o understanding the words coming out of their mouths.

I no longer even attempt to wade into the cast vs forged vs stamped debates. Nobody wants to learn anything.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
What evidence do you have that this is somehow inferior to bolts on other brands of rifles?

And here we get to the crux of the matter. So many people with ZERO metallurgical, welding, machining, or manufacturing engineering experience simply regurgitate what they hear w/o understanding the words coming out of their mouths.

I no longer even attempt to wade into the cast vs forged vs stamped debates. Nobody wants to learn anything.

I am prepared to read what you say and be enlightened , so many people make stereotypical statements about people in general without understanding what's coming out of there own mouths as well

quote:

Originally posted by PC:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
What evidence do you have that this is somehow inferior to bolts on other brands of rifles?

And here we get to the crux of the matter. So many people with ZERO metallurgical, welding, machining, or manufacturing engineering experience simply regurgitate what they hear w/o understanding the words coming out of their mouths.

I no longer even attempt to wade into the cast vs forged vs stamped debates. Nobody wants to learn anything.

I am prepared to read what you say and be enlightened , so many people make stereotypical statements about people in general without understanding what's coming out of there own mouths as well

Experience is a hard teacher.

I read through threads like this and think about a few things. If SS was weak, most of us on the Texas coast would be dead, there's more SS in Chem plants of every kind, grade type under all kinds of applications, all kinds of pressure, pipe, valves, widgets of all kinds etc. And quite a few SS guns owned by the guys that work at those places. I doubt SS as a rule is weak.

I also hear guys talk about this type metal being stronger than this and this action being stronger etc. YOu can look at the material, bite it, lick it whatever and uless you got powers most of us don't have you still may know know what you got. Now if you have mill spec info for the material, which most have never seen mill spec info from where the material came from, heat treating info, or equipment to do hardness testing and so on, a guy my now what he's got. But without that most really don't have anything to go on but an idea or what you heard somewhere. Just wonding how some people can be so specific without necessary info or background and I sure as heck don't have either.

If you’ve ever noticed, most stories about firearms failures invariably start with something like: “I was trying out this new load I came up with and.....â€