It appears that Warren Jensen has acquired a patent on .408 caliber bullets, period. Go to http://www.uspto.gov/ and do a search for patent number 6,629,669 and check it out.
One would have to be pretty stupid to build a rifle in a caliber that could only use projectiles from one source. I wish I would have known this about 10 months ago.
I have been told by two people that he contacted them and warned them NOT to make and sell .408 dia. bullets.
This is hard for me to understand but go and read through the patent info. If you have problems finding it, email me and I'll send the text of the patent to you.
Jay eml: jmcmunn@imbris.net

Ultimately this will be to his detriment. All this sort of thing does is piss off the trade. The likely result will be a good deal of interest in a 411 Tactical Boomer. Or a 405. Or whatever. In my opinion the Lost River Bullets would be one thing holding the 408 back. That would explain why he wouldn't want anyone else making what is almost sure to be a better product. Regards, Bill.

Hi Jay,

Have you seen or heard of anyone who has ever gotten one of Lost River Balistic bullets to shoot? I have tried two different calibers and have one to go and have not been impressed. My best group to date is 4.5" at 100yds. My 22LR shoots better than that! I haven't heard of anybody that I would call creditable say they've gotten any of his bullets to shoot. I wouldn't build any gun that shot only his bullets. I know it looks good on paper but in reality, it doesn't work.

The Big Dog

Jay-
At LongRangeHunting.com some guy has a post about making three different long range match bullets. One is a .408. IIRC the are swaged, not machined.

Have any of the guys slamming his bullets used his recommended twist? It's faster than one would normally use for a similar swaged bullet.

(edit) I just searched LRH and can't find that post.

[ 11-19-2003, 20:31: Message edited by: LongDistanceOperator ]

I have used the bullets in a twist which was definitely suited to the bullet. The problem was not one of insufficient stability but one of severe metal fouling. Regards, Bill.

I skimmed over Jensen's patent. It is for the control of spin dampening, mainly by putting grooves on the bullet (duh, grooves have been around for a while). It only makes passing mention of a 0.408" bullet that is used to illustrate the patent. I didn't understand it entirely, but the patent seem to be claiming the general technique of dampening the spin by use of grooves, surface treatment, overall shape, etc., but not caliber.

IMHO, the patent would be difficult to hold up in court (just because a patent has been issued does not mean it will hold up).

I do not attempt to patent any of my bullet designs. For one thing, it is hard to think of a basic design that hasn't been around for 100 years. Minor changes to an existing design, like tweaking the diameter or length, do not qualify for a patent, as I understand the law. For another thing, there is just no big money in the bullet business to justify the legal costs of patents. It costs money to research and file a patent, and even more money to file lawsuits for patent infringement. Those lawsuits drag on for years and require tons of research and expert witnesses. The legal expenses can easily hit 6 or even 7 digits. When I worked as a process engineer in the semiconductor industry, developing new processes that probably could have been patented, the company policy was "don't bother applying for a patent unless it is worth at least a million dollars, because that's how much it will cost." I laugh when I hear people talking about patenting bullets. Pick up a box of bullets. Do you see a patent number on the box? No -- because almost all bullet designs have been around since before I was born.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this Lost River company is just somebody's hobby business, isn't it? I don't know anyone who buys the products, so it seems unlikely that the business is profitable. I figure either Jensen has a plan to use this patent in some way related to military contracts (that's where the money is) or else this is just ego at work.

Ross Seyfried wrote a couple years ago that he used them in .224" (forgot the cartridge) but GEE-ZUS, for what they cost, who cares?!

The .408 has run hot-and-cold for the few years that I've been watching. We'll see if the wrinkles finally get smoothed out but if the caliber is now someone's private domain, they've pretty well killed it, IMO.

Redial

There are a lot of .408 bullets on the market, GS customs, Bridger, Woodleigh and others..Many 450-400s are .408 bore....That size bullet has been around for some 100 years or more. He cannot patent a bore size.

He can probably patent a bullet, why I have no clue, its a waste of time as one can change any part of it and copy his bullet, like the width of the hollow point or the size of the boatail, whatever...

Historically patent type laws have destroyed specific calibers by limiting demand and manufacturer such will be the case here, why would anyone build a caliber that would only allow one source of bullets. Such is the case with some of the British and German rounds.

However I did not read the post so I may be misinterpeting something.

Mountaingun, LRB is the new incarnation of Jensen Bullets (used to be in Blackfoot, now in Arco). When he and Doc Mosdell moved to Arco, they started machining bullets, rather than making the bonded core J26. Lousy deal, IMO.

The last time I talked to Warren Jensen, his business was running ahead of the plans, but not necessarily the way he had expected. We don't see his law-enforcement handgun bullet line, but it is far more successful than planned. He has some controlled expansion designs that are being very well received.

With a couple of $100,000 CNC lathes, I would not refer to it as a "hobby business". Maybe for someone like Saeed.....

I've never been able to get over the cost of the hunting bullets in order to try them. I've heard both good and bad from people that have shot game with them --- mostly good. HTH, Dutch.