I have a Weatherby Mark V that was purchased new around 1980 and would like to make it more accurate. I understand that some Weatherbys have pressure on the barrel at the tip the stock forearm. Does a Mark V have this pressure point and would trying to pillar bed it help or make things worse?

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Originally posted by Robert D. Lyons:
I have a Weatherby Mark V that was purchased new around 1980 and would like to make it more accurate. I understand that some Weatherbys have pressure on the barrel at the tip the stock forearm. Does a Mark V have this pressure point and would trying to pillar bed it help or make things worse?

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Robert, you can check yourself for a bedding point in the forearm with a sheet of paper similar to a business card and run it under the bbl and if it won't fit at the forearm then there is a pressure point, as to pillar bedding some it helps and some it don't, most I have done it helped but some light/standard bbls don't like freefloating and prefer full bedding with glass, if it doesn't have a pressure point up front make a temperory one with a couple of business cards or similar and shoot the gun and check grouping, also glass bedding the action and pillar bedding it and glassing the first 2" or so of the bbl works for a lot of std. bbls and the bbl channel will need to be opened up and resealed if the removed wood and glassing/pillars works. good luck and good shooting!!!

First of all does your rifle shoot accurately now? If it ain't broke, don't fix it....

I believe all Wby's have forend pressure..Pillar bedding is an alternative method of bedding, nothing more, nothing less..mostly it works, but then it may not..

If the gun is inaccurate then I would glass bed the action an tang, with pillars..and free float the barrel, if necessary.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Robert,

I believe as the other gentlemen have already stated that all Weatherbys as they come from the factory have a pressure point under the barrel.

If you want to have your rifle pillar bedded then I would like to recommend that you also free float the barrel (0.020" lateral clearance & 0.060" vertical clearance to the stock), and then have the barreled-action cryogenically treated. Most Weatherby barrels in the past were hammer forged. This barrel making process induces stress into the barrel. That is part of the reason Weatherby only talks about 1 1/2 inch accuracy for three-shot groups. The cryo treatment will eliminate those stresses and stabilize the barrel.

For cryo treatment I would like to recommend:

Kathi Fisher
Cryo Plus, Incorporated
2429 Millborne Road
Wooster, Ohio 44691
(330) 683-3375

For pillar bedding and barrel floating I would like to recommend:

Mark Penrod
Penrod Precision
312 East College Avenue
North Manchester, Indian 46962
(219) 982-8385

Good Hunting !

Pillar bedding is the greatest fraud perpetrated on the shooting public since free floating barrels. You want pillar bedding? Buy a surplus M1893 Spanish Mauser or any 94, 95, 96, 97 or 98 Mauser and you get it, no charge.

Free floating of sporter weight barrels was a fraud perpetrated by the gun manufacturers to eliminate the effects of stock warpage due to the inferior woods used in the postwar period. It is now taken as gospel and pillar bedding will soon be, too. Light barrels must be damped by pressure at the foreend tip but the wood must be first class and properly cured to do this over a wide range of conditions.

If Rem/Win had just bothered to stock their guns up with the rear action screw sleeve as on Mauser, Mannlicher and other quality rifles, no one would be talking about pillar bedding since everyone would have it! Weatherby wood is generally pretty poor for a gun of its price and it may well benefit from a pillar job. But leave that forearm pressure alone unless your experiments prove that the gun shoots better without it.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to share this with you.

Mausers pillar bedded? Boy, you sure will stir up some of the less educated on that one...I just got thrashed thourghly for that same statement, bless you my boy...

I agree with your post for the most part, but will say that some guns shoot better free floated, some bedded tight and some with the 3 point system you refer to...All barrels are an inity unto themselves and due to different viberations and stresses in the metal may shoot better one way or the other..flat statments seldom apply in the world of gundom, except that Mausers are pillar bedded and thats a fact....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

OH, NO, Two of 'em got together.

Let's separate 'em before they breed!

Don

Right on Don,
I can't believe that Ray would want to resume this line of discussion with David's misguided misery. Misery loves company I guess. Flame on Ray!

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

I think I'm going to have to go along with david and Ray on whether Mausers are pillar bedded or not. If you look at the front od the floorplate, you have a pillar, and the insert placed at the rear of the action is one also. (Let the flames begin!)
FWIW. A way to fine out if free floating will help improve accuracy, cut an insert to fit inder the action, just behing the recoil lug, and another just under the tang at the rear of the action. This will usually reliebe the barrel enough to slide a dollar bill or business card under the barrel. If accuracy improves, either leave the shims there and forget about it, or sand away. I leave the shims in, as this way the rifle is not altered and preserves any factory warranty. (I sent a Ruger 77 back for repairs on the extractor. I'd purchased the rifle used, and the previous owner had free floated the barrel. Ruger would NOT fis the extarctor unless I paid to replace the stock. BTW, they wanted more for the new stock than I paid for the rifle. I had them send it back, and used a Mauser extractor to fix the gun myself.)
JMHO.
Paul B.

Paul B,
Et tu Brute? You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding of the pillar bedding concept. There is a difference between a spacer that goes with the action screws or bottom metal versus the Real McCoy pillar that is integral to the stock. Tee hee, this is getting monotonous.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

OK guys we got'm out numbered and on the run..Its time for the kill..

Take RA Barry prisnor, he knows were right, he is too intelligent to be that misinformed, but he is a little stuborn, so I think we can brain wash him a little with various means of torture and he'll come around..We'll start of by not letting him watch that pink dinosaur on TV...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I had thought I would try again to support RA in his attempts to enlighten those who are mistaken. I thought it over though and decided that I had done all I could. Besides I have a Mauser downstairs that I have been requested to pillar bed. I think I can accomplish this by glueing the rear SPACER into the stock and installing PILLARS ahead of and behind the recoil lug Regards, Bill.

Bill,

That's my recipe, too.

I make sure the front pillar(s) are long enough to keep the front spacer from touching the bottom of the recoil lug.

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 07-08-2001).]

Don G,
Kind of a "spacers are spacers and pillars are pillars and never the twain shall meet" sort of thing. Right? Regards, Bill.

Amen. Rest in peace. This is too obvious and dull to get a good flaming thread started over. But, one can never tell what Ray might pull out of his hat.

Take off the top hat, Ray, and put on your thinking cap. It is O.K. to admit you are wrong for once in your life. Aren't you human too?

Uh-oh, here comes that blue fly again.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

All knocks against pillar-bedding come out of ignorance. David, if you'd care to debate the issue, I'll accomodate you.

AD

[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 07-09-2001).]

Have you guys ever considered the fact that you'll have to cut the front "pillar" or whatever "you" call it off the bottom metal to pillar bed that Mauser, the way you claim?? but I've got a great idea for you!!!

just splash a bunch of glass or glue all over the bottom metal and stick'er in, then it will be piller bedded in your minds, or you could use a pinpoint of glue on that front post and it would still be piller bedded as you so claim...OR you could saw off the front piller ( or whatever you named it) glue it in and put the bottom metal back on, now that would really make a difference wouldn't it...

Duh!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
If you glued the bottom metal into the stock then the front spacer would indeed become a pillar. If one did the same thing at the rear then the rear spacer would also be a pillar. So the difference becomes clear (to most). A pillar is part of the stock. A spacer is separate from it. Pillar=Part. Spacer=Separate. Simple when you think about it. Regards, Bill.

I ran a dollar under the barrel and 2 inches from the tip of the forearm it stops. The first two rounds I fire will print about 2 inches at 200 yards. If I fire more rounds right way the point-of-impact changes by around 4 inches and it will consistantly group at that spot. If I let the barrel cool after I fire the first two rounds, it will still not shoot to the point the first rounds hit.

pillar is defined as "a freestanding verticle shaft or column that serves as a support". (webster). So if the spacer is seperate, so is a pillar. Have to agree with Ray. No flames intended.

Think hard before you free float or pillar bed it. Weatherby has spent time and money on their bedding scheme. Their experience tells them that it has the best chance of working, otherwise they would do it another way. My personal experience with free floated sporter barrels has been mixed. On average the point of impact is more stable but the group size is larger. That is free floated vs. tip pressure. Trade offs! So for an all out hunting rig, it may be OK. Most successfull shots are taken at relatively close range where MOA accuacy is not important. If you want an MOA sporter go for the tip pressure method. Do expect to check the zero more often though.

My father had a Fibermark Weatherby in .340 that he could not get accurate groups with. He shot the hell out of it for a month trying different loads, etc. (In fact he was forced to use a different rifle for his elk hunt)

It was finally discovered that chamber was loose. You could drop the cartridge in the chamber and move it with your finger. He rebarreled it and now it shoots fairly well. If you don't mind the fact that after 20 rounds the barrel becomes so fouled that it throws the shot out past an inch and half at 200 yards.

If your having accuracy problems, check the fit at the chamber. And see if you've got fouling problems.

But I can guarantee he wont buy another Weatherby. Which is why he bought a M70

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

manhasset:
That is too simple minded. "Pillar bedding" does not equal "pillar" because they both contain the word "pillar." Sure a pillar is a spacer that holds the roof up. Semantic hogwash! Sheesh! Pillar bedding has to have the pillar integral to the stock. It is not a spacer rattling around in the screw hole. It is not the situation of bottom metal and action bottoming out on each other or the spacer contacting top and bottom metal at once. Why can't you guys understand a simple concept as explained by Bill Leeper?
Ignorance is curable, but stupidity is terminal, to borrow a phrase.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

The solution to the debate: Why bother with pillar bedding or pressure points, just glue the action permanently into the stock and completely ruin the firearm.

The action bolt spacer in a Mauser pillar bedding is quite a reach.

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

Actually glueing the receiver into the stock is a very good way to produce an accurate rifle although disassembly for cleaning is difficult . It is important that the glue job be as stress free as a good bedding job but I think the glue in is still the easiest way to produce a 1/4 moa rifle. I glued in a Brno ZKK 600 in 30/06 and it was an extremely accurate hunting rifle. I considered the glue-in to be a viable technique in a varmint rifle but not in a rough usage big game rifle of course. My short range BR rifles are glued in while the long range rifles are conventionally bedded. I once put together a 222 BR rifle that was truly pillar bedded. The flat bottomed Shilen DGA action sat on two 1" diameter steel pillars and was clear everywhere else except for the back of the recoil lug and two small pads front and rear on the sides to locate the action laterally. The pillars were lapped to the bottom of the action. The action went into the stock perfectly and with no movement as the screws were tightened. The rifle never shot worth a sh--(.350") and I tore it down and glued it in.
I have never seen a rifle that was not improved by a good glass bedding job. Pillars or not. Frequently the pressure point on the barrel was used to compensate for less than perfect action bedding.
I like the performance and reliable accuracy of the properly bedded free floated rifle. There are some rifles however that need the pressure point. The Ruger No.1 is one of these. The Weatherby MKV is not. Glass bed and free float it or have it done by a competent smith. Regards, Bill.

Robert: In response to your question- Bedding your rifle might increase its's accuracy, properly done it sure won't "hurt" the rifle. The question of if you should free float, pressure point, or full lenght bed the barrel can only be answered bt trial and error. If you brought the rifle to My shop, I would shoot the rifle as is to establish a baseline accuracy, recrown and shoot again, then I would bed and free float, pillars are optional, depending on the condition of your wood stock, next I would shoot with the same ammo as the first test to compare. Then the "games" would begin if there had been no improvement. The only limiting factor is how much time/money you are willing to spend. I belive in a later post you said the first 2 shots at 200 where around 2", is this with factory ammo? If you can keep 2 in 2", and 5 within 4" at 200 yards, you will kill any big game you will ever hunt, sure it is nice to show people targets at 200 that are under an inch at 200 or 300 yards, but it doesn't kill an elk any better.

I'm happy with the 2 shot 2-inch group, it's just that I never quite know where the shots that follow are going to hit. I shoot handloads. I'd be happy with a 3-inch group if I knew that I could fire 10 rounds in a row and they would all be in that 3-inch circle. I can't sell or trade it as it was given to me by a family member, but I don't really want to put a lot of momey into it.

Robert: What method do you use to clean this rifle, and how badly fouled was the bore when you aquired the rifle? Has the rifle seen considerble use? Does it shoot better with flat based bullets than boattail bullets? How many powder/bullet combo's have you tried, and which ones? Lots of questions, but maybe we can find an answer in your specific data.

I'm not sure how much it was used, it looks like it was just made. The bore is very clean and there is no fouling. I hadn't thought about flat based bullets. I'll load some up and try them.

Mr Lyons, good accurracy start with : 1. Decent trigger pull, 21/2 to 3 lbs on a hunting rifle. 2. Quality scope mounted properly. 3. Stress-free bedding, no binding of the action. This can be checked. I would pillar bed especially on a wood stock but this would come last. 4. Float the barrel and re-crown, this is cheap and you can always return to the pressured forearm tip. Some barrels benefit, some don't. 5.Clean the barrel with Sweet's or Barne's CR-10 carefully. Unless you have access to a bore scope you have to assume your barrel is fouled especially in the throat area. 6. Let the load development begin. Remember the most accurate rifle won't shoot to it's full potential unless it's fed the most accurate ammunition. I believe it's shooter 33%, rifle 33%, ammo 33% = accuracy 7. If all else fails sell the rifle or re-barrel. sure-shot

Mr Lyons, good accurracy start with :
1.Decent trigger pull, 21/2 to 3 lbs on a hunting rifle.

2. Quality scope mounted properly. Lap the scope rings.

3. Stress-free bedding, no binding of the action. This can be checked. I would pillar bed especially on a wood stock but this would come last.

4. Float the barrel and re-crown, this is cheap and you can always return to the pressured forearm tip. Some barrels benefit, some don't.

5.Clean the barrel with Sweet's or Barne's CR-10 carefully. Unless you have access to a bore scope you have to assume your barrel is fouled especially in the throat area.

6. Let the load development begin. Remember the most accurate rifle won't shoot to it's full potential unless it's fed the most accurate ammunition. I believe it's shooter 33%, rifle 33%, ammo 33% = accuracy

7. If all else fails sell the rifle or re-barrel. sure-shot