Fellows, I have an old sporterized M1917 (Winchester) that I would love to use as a base for my first big bore rifle. I'm not made of money, but I''d love to turn it into a nice, functional rifle for an eventual Buff or Hippo. Elephant won't be in my price range, short of winning the lottery!

Something about old guns finding new life does it for me, and since this one is already been redone once (waaaaay before I owned it) I don't feel bad about it. I'm thinking a 416 Rigby would be ideal, and a classic fitting this hundred year old host. I'm open to caliber suggestions!

It's already had the rear sight removed (although the "duck pond" is not filled), but it obviously needs at least the following:

• bolt face opened (or swapped for a P14 bolt?)
  
• receiver massaged/rails opened/etc.
  
• rebarrel or rebore (anybody rebore from .308 to .408? There's plenty of meat on the original tube...)
  
• restock
  
• sights
  
• convert to cock-on-opening, straighten bolt handle, and add 3-pos. safety

I know it's a lot of work, but I'm in no hurry. I'd really like to find a smith that knows the M1917, so I'd love some suggestions there as well.

Show me your M1917 ideas! Input is welcome, and thanks to all

Doing two 1917 Enfield projects right now. I'll give you my opinion.

1. Can't swap bolts
2. I looked at the 416 Rigby, thought the remaining material on the bolt face rim was to thin. Stay with a standard magnum size or smaller
3. I like the factory dog leg and safety; though the 3 position Ed Lapour makes is nice. He made a new run last year that included some additional mods.
4. Definitely change to cock-on-opening
5. Timney JUST released an updated trigger for it that sets the trigger a little further forward in the trigger guard. The old trigger had it setting like 1/8" away from the rear
6. Open up the back of the receiver - basically removing the stripper clip slot. I did this myself with a grinder, files, and India stones. Pretty easy
7. If you have straightened bottom metal already, stick with it, no reason to buy aftermarket. If not, buy the after market setup from Duane Wiebe
8. Mag box can be made from the existing on by flipping the ends around; or you can make a new one
9. Definitely fill the duck pond
10. Use some heavy duty Talley bases
11. Bolt release can stay the same or be redone like a Mauser.
12. No need to surface grind unless you want to
13. My Talley bases hide my serial #, so you will need it rescribed elsewhere

As for gunsmiths, I can recommend two that I have experience with - Tip Burns in Canyon Lake, TX and Dennis Olson in MT. Both are very experienced and easy to deal with.

I will post pics of my completed 404 Jeffery barreled action from Dennis later today.

Done lots of them and just returned from the range shooting a 375 on a P14. You want to rebarrel; forget reboring. Yes, you need to work in the rails. Bolt face; easiest to use a P14 but the 17 can be opened up too. I like the 14 extractors better as you can close the bolt on a chambered round easier. Fill the moat in the ring with a welded in plug. New bolt handle. Keep cock on closing; nothing wrong with that. I don't know of anyone making a M70 safety; in fact, I built mine without a safety and they stopped making the M70 types. As is, P14s and 17s have a great safety anyway.

Thanks for the info. Are you sure a P14 bolt won't exchange into an M1917 (Not doubting your info, just conflicts with what I have been told in the past...)

I forgot that my stripper clip notches are already gone as well, so I'm good there as well.

Dennis Olson I had heard of before, thanks for the recommendation.

Austin, how much are you putting into this thing, if you don't mind me asking? PM is fine if you don't want to post... I'm trying to ballpark for budget

Yes you can exchange bolts from p14 to p17 or other way round you do have to alter the breech face going from one to other. With your p17 you are already ok as my first 450 Dakota was built on a p17. Thanks, Lynn

My 458 Lott on a Rem 30S(rem com 1917)




Keith

P14 and 17 bolts are interchangeable; you are going to fit a new barrel anyway and have to cut an extractor slot anyway. P14 extractors are much better for closing on a round in the chamber as they are made for the .303 and have angled face. P17s don't have that feature. Cock on closing was designed for a reason and it works; be careful of cock on opening conversions as some of them make the firing pin fall too short and require a stiff firing pin to compensate. And I don't mind two stage Mil triggers either. Cut and weld your TG flat; don't use it as is.

A reputable gunsmith will make sure a cock on open works correctly.

Thanks for all the replies, and keep the pictures coming!

Can anyone help explain, ideally with a picture or diagram, how the cock-on-opening conversion works? I looked at the Dayton-Traister website but there's hardly any explanation. It looks like a mere new cocking piece to me?

Oh, and this gun has the flattened bottom metal already anyway, so that's good to go

Cock on opening conversion is a waste of money unless you have lots of it to spend. Especially if it is done so your FP fall is normal. The British designed cock on closing for a reason and it works fine. There are a couple of ways to do a cock on opening; the cheap way and the expensive way. Neither is necessary; just that some people don't understand cock on closing advantages and don't care for it.

But are you able to explain how the conversion is done? I'm just trying to learn everything I can.

There are multiple ways to do the conversion. A gunsmith can explain the differences better than me. The issue with short firing pin fall can be solved with either a new firing pin (which I believe Ed Lapour includes in his new builds) or adding to the length of the original firing pin.

There are many arguments for cock on closing, but most date to issues 100+ years ago. I have two reasons I like cock on opening. I like all my rifles to function the same so I develop the same instinct reflexes and if cock on closing was superior, why did Paul Mauser select cock on opening for the M98? (the M96 was cock on close).

The cock on closing system on the Enfield is fully functional and safe. If you want to save $$$ and hassle, leave as it.

quote:

I like all my rifles to function the same

This is my reasoning. No problem with COC, just not what I want for this project.

Anyone have any other smiths they would recommend for an M1917?

I did a 458 Lott and a 416 Rem on M1917 actions. All of the work was done by me in my garage to learn how to do it. It took a while, and I asked a lot of questions on this site, but they turned out well.

I went with a P14 bolt modified to fit the M1917 coned breech. This is a key point, they have different breeches. Square with extractor groove for the P14 and coned with extractor slot for the M1917. A P14 bolt swap is fine, but you have to get the barrel breech to match, or modify the bolt. A coned breech seemed like it would feed better, so I went that way and modified the bolt. I cut the extractor slot with files after headspacing.

Both are cock on open using Dayton Traister kits. Both have never misfired, and I never expect them to. It wasn't that hard to get the travel and pin protrusion correct. Kept the original safety, and straightened the bolt handle. I wanted the bolt handle away from my knuckles and longer to make it easy to get hold of.

I can second Dennis Olsen. My father has had him do work over the years and he has always delivered. Jeff Smith (jeffeoso) has done a few big bore M1917's as well and was very helpful for my builds.

Here is a photo of my 416. The 458 is identical except for a cerakote finish and better wood.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Here are my pics of my 404 Jeffery barreled action.

1917 Enfield 404 Jeffery

Austin,

What diameter is the rear ring cut to? It looks like it matches the front.

Gotta love what can be done by a good hand.

Very nice.

Jeremy

I have no idea. When I got it, it was already cut. Dennis just filled the duck pond.

In fact, both 1917 actions I had both had a nice radius cut on the rear.

I might end up rebluing it to a matte finish before the rifle is done.

I saw a Dakota 76 in 404 Dakota at the Wichita Cabela's last week that I would have bought if I didn't have the two 1917s in process. It was sweet and matte finished.

Dennis did a magnificent job on the rear of the action and the bolt stop.

I thought about having it surface ground, but decided it was going to be a working rifle.

Nothing fancy on the stock I'm doing:

1. Hand picked mesquite (in my garage, from log, need to cut blanks next)
2. Full sporter stock (probably a semi-inlet from Al Lind), Schnabel front end, no ebony.
3. Pachmayr recoil pad (Red or Brown), 15" LOP
4. Screw in rear swivel and Trader Keith canvas sling
5. Biesen grip cap
6. Cross-bolts - haven't decided whether they will be ebony plugged or exposed Talley heads.
7. Epoxy bed with Devcon Titantium
8. Sealed with Varathane/mineral spirits, either finished with the same or with Velvet Oil
9. Checkering by Custom Diamonds

Thanks for the pics, love seeing the successful 1917 conversions. To those that went to COO, can you provide details on how the left side of the receiver bridge was modified? It looks like it's relieved, and the bolt release is altered as well to give the cocking piece more room?

I don't know whether the left rear of the receiver needs to be modified for cock on opening, I don't believe so.

You do have to modify if you are putting on a 3 position safety from Ed Lapour.

Mine was modified because the two actions I received had been reduced by hand and not uniform, so I asked Dennis to clean them up.

If you modify the bolt release, you will either need to modify the left receiver wall like mine or fill in the gap left where "button" sets. You can leave the bolt release stock as well.

Most folks just take the metal spring that is there and heat it and bend it around the back of the release. Some folks build whole new bolt release assemblies. I'm not sure what Dennis did on mine.

Here are some good pics from Ed's site:

Ed's 3 position safety

A sweet 375 H&H custom by Ed on a 1917

I LOVE the 375 Ed has on his site. If I could pick one rifle depicting my ideal for this project, that would be it, but in a Rigby. AMAZING rifle.

Call him up and order his safety! And see if he still does metal work and if he will make the same barreled action in 416 Rigby for you. Might as well get some of Duane's great bottom metal while you are at it

If you want to see the pinnacle of custom 1917 work, search on "Tom Burgess 1917 Enfield".

Nothing needs to be done to the bolt release for a COO conversion. The work there is to re-cut the cocking cam on the back of the bolt.

I did as Austin Hunter mentioned. The button pad was cut off and the tension spring was bent to cover the back of the release. It is purely cosmetic. However, you can't cut too far, or you cut off the camming surface in the rear ring that the bolt hits.

One thing I forgot. Make certain that you get ejectors that have been modified to coil springs instead of the original leaf spring. The leaf springs break, and you can't eject cartridges without a lot of fumbling. The coils spring mod corrects that issue. Big rifles must be reliable.

No question that Ed Lapour has done some fine work.

Jeremy

One of the major things that I see wrong with that action is the angle of the bolt track behind the receiver bridge.

I recall seeing photos of a couple of rifles done by Blackburn and somebody else where they completely milled off that rear part and then welded on a rear part that had the lines of a mauser action.

Looks one hell of a lot better and allows you to make the stock look better as well.

Yes, the stock Enfield has a sharp angle. I have to stop the checkbook at some point.

quote:

Originally posted by farbedo:
Nothing needs to be done to the bolt release for a COO conversion. The work there is to re-cut the cocking cam on the back of the bolt.

I did as Austin Hunter mentioned. The button pad was cut off and the tension spring was bent to cover the back of the release. It is purely cosmetic. However, you can't cut too far, or you cut off the camming surface in the rear ring that the bolt hits.

One thing I forgot. Make certain that you get ejectors that have been modified to coil springs instead of the original leaf spring. The leaf springs break, and you can't eject cartridges without a lot of fumbling. The coils spring mod corrects that issue. Big rifles must be reliable.

No question that Ed Lapour has done some fine work.

Jeremy

Yep. Did that conversion myself. Easy. Gunparts.com has the kit.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
Yes, the stock Enfield has a sharp angle. I have to stop the checkbook at some point.

Ah cripes, you only live once!

My first .375 was on a Winchester M17.

It had:

* Cock on opening (Gunparts/Numrich arms kit),
* Duckpond filled and recontoured,
* Trigger converted to single stage,
* Mauser bolt release,
* sporter stock,
* straightened trigger guard,
* mag box/feed rail alterations,
* Ruger barrell band front sight, "island" rear sight,
* qd swivel stud silver soldered to barrell .......though I'd go a Ruger unit if I did it again,
* modified extractor so it would slip over cartridge dropped in chamber,
* two peice mounts and low power variable

Things I'd do different:

* Reshape bolt handle,
* three stage safety (though the original is a good one),
* qd mounts......just because I like them,
* Better stock

My old rifle was very accurate though I made it up too heavy.

I believe the cock on opening conversion is in Dunlaps (?) book along with other work on the M17/P14 but I'll have to check.

If you really want to convert it, and I did, I'd get the kit along with the speedlock firing pin spring.

I read somewhere that conversions on this action kept alot of gunsmiths fed.........with the amount of work I remember doing on this action I would believe it.

Thanks for all the reply's, it's very helpful. I'd LOVE to have Ed LaPour do this one for me but I suspect I couldn't afford his work... Maybe I'm wrong? Seems like his stuff runs in the thousands before you stock it.

Kala Azar-

First of all welcome to the board!!!!!!

Ed LaPour makes a great safety for a M-1917. There are a handful of great gunsmiths that work on m-1917's. some of whom are I will list below, in a purely random, hence, I am not listing them in terms of quality or any other criteria:

Dennis Olsen in Plains, Montana
Tip Burns in Canyon Lake, Texas
James Anderson
Nick Hughes
John Farner, Toomanytools
Don Markey, Michagan

I would urge you to contact any or all of these great folks. One of these great guys may fit your budget.

Good hunting!!!!!!

Thanks for the names!

John Farner & Nick Hughes did excellent work on Butch's 416 Rigby Enfield

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