Anyone here have one they want to sell or rent? Just exploring options before ordering one, gonna cut 2 chambers

Are you doing a 444 marlin rimless for a bolt action, or 429 express, or such? I've got reamers that I use to do that; predominately I do a longer 429 express instead of the 444 rimless. In the past, I've used a 444 reamer that has a long leade and throat, and then lengthen the chamber out to the length I want with a chucking reamer. I haven't done one in quite a while, have to go and see exactly what reamers I have.

I have another similar reamer I think, too, a 44-303.

Dave,

Yes looking to do a bolt action. Seems you've got some experience here. Seems like you prefer 1 over the others. Opem to suggestion

I've built several, learned a bit on the way. First off, use a fast twist barrel. I started with a slow twist and it would only use 240 grain bullets. I got a batch of Douglas 14 twist blanks, my current rifle is a Mauser 98 with one of those on it. It is chambered for the 429 express, with a case length of 2.333". My load I've settled on for that is 54 grains of 4198 and a 300 gr sierra bullet for 2400 fps. I think that's running in the 50 to 55K pressure range. I ran loads up to 57 grains, but brass life was only about 6 or 7 loadings, the primer pockets shot loose, so I backed it off.

I have a couple more 14 twist barrel blanks, I'm going to build another one on a pre-64 m70. I had Marc Jamison run me off 1500 or so 30-06 basic, which are 2.556" long, and I'm going to chamber for that longer length.

I looked at my reamers I use to make this cartridge. I have a piloted 444 with no throat or leade, that I use to cut the basic chamber till I get to the rim cutter. Then, I lengthen the chamber to desired dimension using a 29/64 chucking reamer. Then, I have another 444 reamer with an incredibly long throat that I use essentially as a throating reamer to create a leade that will take the bullet I am using.

Ken Howell did this cartridge, and I independently did it on my very first homemade rifle. I took a $15 GEW Amberg 1917 mauser, and a Numrich barrel and ground my own half shell reamer. It worked, and would shoot light bullets okay. Was proof of the concept. Only cost me about $75 for the barrel and dies. I sold that barrel to someone else, and built another rifle on that action, and used it for awhile, don't remember the caliber. By then I wasn't so impoverished, and was somewhat in the barrel business. I bought a batch of 14 twist Douglas .44 barrels, and decided to teach myself a bit more about gunsmithing. I took the same rifle, turned a barrel for it out of the blank, recontoured the bridge, added 3 position safety, worked over the trigger, built a custom stock, etc. But, this time I bought that long throat reamer and used it. It worked but the case was lacking in capacity to get good performance, so I fireformed some '06 and determined that 2.333 was a good length that the brass would form and trim to. I then used the chucking reamer to lengthen to that, and developed the loads.

I did some custom barrels for others at that 2.333 length, but have always wanted to do the 2.55" length for my next one.

I haven't had a lathe set up for about 6 or 7 years, just have got a new shop built and have a 10" logan set up and an 11" on deck. My mill is sitting under a pile of junk while I try to sheetrock the ceiling in the garage part of the shop, so I'm stalled for the moment, but within the next few months hope to be up and running full capacity and take it on sometime after that.

Long winded, but that is about all I know about the 429 express.

It was interesting, I talked to Ken Howell about 2005 or so about his 444 marlin rimless, he designed it exactly the same way I did mine, was trying to get a low cost wildcat that would work on a mauser, and use standard reamer and dies. Two cases of parallel thinking. Internet wasn't around to search for ideas then, I had to experiment all on my own.

The biggest defect of this cartridge is the lack of good, heavy bullets for the appropriate velocity. The Sierra's hold together okay; better than you would think. Hornady 300 gr XTP are quite explosive. Both have the ballistic coefficient of a rock, or a brick.



Empty 429 express, 2.905" OAL load with 300 gr sierrra, 2.556" Jamison 30-06 basic case. Didn't have a shorter 444 marlin to add to the picture.

How does this cartridge headspace? On the case mouth? I haven't seen many straight walled cases on bolt actions.

Yes, on the case mouth. A lot of people have told me that won't work, and they always bring up the tired old story of the .40 Whelen.

However, with a correctly cut chamber, and a seated bullet, there's absolutely no way that a cartridge correctly trimmed to length can go past correct headspace. There's no place for the brass at the mouth to go, no matter how much you force it. I can hammer on a cartridge in a barrel outside the action, and can't make it go in past correct headspace. I've never had to trim a case either after the initial fire forming.

going to be using a yugo m48, 1:20 twist barrel from Numrich that were left over H&R barrels.

Hawk actually had quite the range of .430 heavy spitzers meant for single shot 444's. 275, 300, 350 and 400 plus several heavy flat points.

Tex,

450 bushmaster is available in several commercial bolt actions currently, and the 350 Legend in even more. Both are straight walled and mass produced so you know the cases can't be as tightly spec'd as handloads

quote:

The biggest defect of this cartridge is the lack of good, heavy bullets for the appropriate velocity. The Sierra's hold together okay; better than you would think. Hornady 300 gr XTP are quite explosive. Both have the ballistic coefficient of a rock, or a brick

Could be time to go to mono bullets.

It's a .44 so I'd think hardcast lead would likely work well.

If you can find "MOLEMAN" , he has a 1.6" and a 1.8" version of the 44/06. [ AR's ]

Look at the FTX bullet.

Now to find a square edged reamer.

You can always just taper bore the chamber with a boring bar, then finish with a throater.

You guys are a huge help! Wasn't sure I was going to find much info.

Found some very interesting bullets from CEB, plus heavy Hawks. Along with cheaper 44 mag bullets this thing could be very flexible.

SSDave,


I found several of your posts on other forums from years ago. Is it just as easy as ordering a 444 reamer with out the rim cutter?

The rim does not matter, the chamber is not that deep. But you do need a square edge, not a 45 on the mouth.

Or if you can find a square edge necker and throater that is the right diameter. [short chamber with a 444 reamer then square off the end with the special necker, throater.] Does this make sense?

As MoreBS said, if you have a neck and throater, you don't need to have a special reamer without reamer recess, as you'll lengthen the chamber with it to the length you need.
I don't think a square mouth is necessary, I haven't done that and it's worked fine.

You're welcome to borrow my reamers, between the three of them you can make essentially any chamber you want from shorter than the 444 marlin to as long as your rifle will take, if you have a source of brass.

I'd recommend going with the length that you can easily get fireforming 30-06, which is about 2.3 inches. In my case, I chose 2.333 as it's easy to remember.

I fireform my cases by annealing well past the shoulder (see the anneal line in my photos) and then load with 8 grains of faster powder, covered to the mouth with cream of wheat. I wad up a small piece of paper and jam the ball into the mouth to hold the COW in until I fire it. I can fire into a garbage can in the garage, but it smells awful, so I usually do it at the range or out on the desert. Adjust the amount of powder till it fireforms well. Then, run into the expander die to iron it out smooth, run into sizer to size back down, trim to length, run into expander die again and load the round as normal.

I thought about the 444 rimless and this is what I decided to do.

I made a couple guesses, but they all have different than .470 rim. What is the parent case for your .444 belted?

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
I made a couple guesses, but they all have different than .470 rim. What is the parent case for your .444 belted?

Looks like the .376 Steyr.

376 was my first thought, based on photo but it's not belted, and rim is bigger. Unless he's forming the belt and turning down the rim?

Forming the belt, turning down the rim. [yes]

2.320" trim length

444 Marlin dies to load.

240 Wby as the parent? I mean, that makes a lot of practical sense.

Like steyr, too! I had a Steyr built, as well as (so far just 1) the 400 Whelen. This big 44 just looks really cool, and I've got loads of 30-06 brass.

Ya know that reminds me, I once saw a belt forming die to turn 25-06/270 brass into 240 brass. Might need to look into that

375 JDJ Rimless was my choice. Plenty of 375 bullets out there. Plenty of 30-06 brass. And I have the 375 JDJ Reamer ..

Sure that is the practical way, but the hole in the barrel has to count for something.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com...38671?pid=1330231953

Read this about using a standard reamer!

His problems were caused by crimping.
One should not crimp these straight walled cartridges.

I agree that crimping is bad.

These aren't intended for lever guns, so no cannelure and crimp is needed. If you're going to work with wildcat cartridges, you have to know the basics of how and why to make the cases, and for the 444 rimless, that includes leaving the case mouth straight and square, not rounding it off into a bullet cannelure with an unnecessary crimp.

Gentlemen:

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but after reading the thread it seems to me that the posters have considerable knowledge of the 444 Marlin and the 444 Rimless. My question is, can one fit a 444 Marlin in a Siamese Mauser?

Gracias,
Hoot

I've always thought the desirability of the siamese mauser was that it was for a rimmed cartridge and would feed the .45-70.

If I was to want to do a 444 rimless, I'd start with a Model 70, a Mauser 98, or a 1917 Enfield. Or even a model 700, Ruger 77 or Savage 110. Anything made to feed the 30-06 well.

If you have a siamese mauser and want a 444 rimless, I'd trade it to someone who wants to do a 45-70 for an appropriate rimless action.

Even a rimmed 444 is wasted in a Siamese. They work well on Enfields of all models. But as for the 444 rimless, that would be stupid to put it on a Siamese and a lot of work for nothing. Siamese Mausers are for larger rimmed cartridges. I believe Mr Murray was talking about the standard 444, with a rim.
The rimless version, as stated, works in any standard action with a .473 bolt face.

Gentlemen:

Thank you for your responses. Perhaps I did not make myself clear in my post. What I was asking was can a 444 Marlin(Rimmed version)be fitted to a Siamese Mauser. It was not my intention to try to fit the rimless version to a Siamese Action. I have two Siamese actions and I was wanting to fit some cartridge to one of them other than a 45-70 as I have three other 45-70s. I thought of the 45-60 but, I have a Browning Single Shot in that caliber. Any suggestions?

Gracias
Hoot

I have a .348 win on a Siamese action.
A 38-56 would work slick as snot too I think.
DPCD has the reamer, don't you Tom?

I didn't read well. I wasn't thinking of a 444 marlin rimmmed, when I replied.

For a cool rimmed cartridge, most of them I'd consider are 30-06 size; 405 winchester 9.3x72R based wildcats, 375 nitro 2 1/2". 38-72 (nearly the same as the nitro). 348 would work good, and 38-50 or 38-56.

Mr Murry, I knew exactly what you asked; the answer is the same; the Siamese is unsuitable for the 444 Marlin; bolt face is .566, and the 444 rim is .510. Too much slop for reliability.
Yes, a 38-56 would work well. But so would a 375-06 with less drama in a 98. A 45-60 is a step in the wrong direction.
405 and 9.3 won't fit into a Siamese mag which are only 3 inch.

I have a 375/284 on a mex 1910. While loading some ammo one time, I ran a 45/70 case into the die. The 45/70 base is suppose to be .505, and the 284 base .500, but the 45/70 sized easily.
The neck was just short, but looked good.
Thank goodness I was able to put that idea out of my head, and not do a rimmed version!!!

Yes the base is .5 but the rim is .610; however, I once built a 45-70 on a #1 Enfield and did not want to open up the receiver, so I cut the rims down a bit. Still worked in all other 45-70s, so the rim is over sized. We can do your wildcat.....

What about the 405 Grenadier in the Siamese… like yumastepside did.

That would work. But Russians are easier to get. Russian rims are about the same as the 8mm Siamese. So would certainly work on a Siamese.

Gentlemen:

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me regarding the Siamese Mauser. There are a few options that I did not know about. So I will have to check out the ballistics and more importantly, brass and what to use to form some of the options.I sure would not want to consider using a cartridge that the brass is nearly impossible to get. Again,

Muchas gracias, amigos

dpcd

Was re-reading the posts and it came to me that a 40-65 would probably work as one can simply size a 45-70 case down. Would that not work well?

Gracias,

Hoot