The Accurate Reloading Forums
Budget Checkering?
07 September 2006, 17:20
Bill SovernsBudget Checkering?
Im considering offering a simple checkering pattern. Cost would be $70-$100.Would anyone be interested in a simple point pattern in the $70-$100 range?yesno
07 September 2006, 17:25
TC1Build it and they will come, but only if you don't laugh at the inletting.
Terry
--------------------------------------------
Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
07 September 2006, 17:45
Marc_StokeldPersonally, I would go in for budget brain surgery before I would pay for budget checkering. Or as Toby Keith sings, I would "discount bungee jump" before I got discount checkering. But I also quite sure I am in the minority here.
The old Joe Balickie video says it best: "there are only 2 kinds of checkering in this world-good and bad."
The truth of the matter is very few gun owners can even spot bad checkering, so I am sure people would be flocking to patterns that cheap. And it is not a bad thing. There is room for both WalMart and Tiffany's in this big wide world of ours. Personally I will stick with Tiffany & Co., and at the same time be very happy I live in the US where others can get the WalMart version if they so choose.
07 September 2006, 17:52
ramrod340quote:
Personally, I would go in for budget brain surgery before I would pay for budget checkering. Or as Toby Keith sings, I would "discount bungee jump" before I got discount checkering. But I also quite sure I am in the minority here.
The old Joe Balickie video says it best: "there are only 2 kinds of checkering in this world-good and bad."
The truth of the matter is very few gun owners can even spot bad checkering, so I am sure people would be flocking to patterns that cheap
I don't see that Bill is offering "BAD" checkering but a very simple pattern. I think there are many that would like a simply little pattern. When I talked to Ahlmans they said a lot of their work was in their lower level patterns $50-125. I've seen very expensive BAD checkering. I've also seen GOOD simple checkering at reasonable prices.
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
07 September 2006, 18:28
jeffeossoBill,
22lpi, 2 panel grip, wrap forearm, and I'd wind up using my local guy. $100 is an easy price point, with a good turn around .. think muser model B.. clean, simple, crisp.
jeffe
07 September 2006, 18:48
richjI think there's a market for it. There are tons of amateurs or even pros out there.. GAG, Richards, Boyds etc are selling stocks to them... They can install a pad, glass an action and finish a stock but wouldn't even attempt checkering... so I'd say try it.
Rich
07 September 2006, 18:49
ramrod340quote:
22lpi, 2 panel grip, wrap forearm, and I'd wind up using my local guy. $100 is an easy price point, with a good turn around .. think muser model B.. clean, simple, crisp.
While I haven't used this local guy for a full job he did a full recut of a grip for me. It was very good. He will get my next job. But Jeffe must have dirty pictures of him or I didn't hold my mouth right because my quote was $150 for the same pattern.
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
07 September 2006, 19:17
Marc_StokeldOh wow, I realize that did come out wrong! I was in no way intentionally implying that Bill was not a skilled craftsman.
But it is a simple fact of life that custom makers (of anything-not just guns) cut corners and are not on their "A Game" when offering different price points for labor. Why would some one do the exact same work for a lesser price? that is what I was trying to say or mean that Bill could not do it right when on his "A Game."
When making a gun to get in the Guild, you do it to a different level than you will when you have a low-ball customer. We all need to set a level that we will not drop below and stick to it.
07 September 2006, 19:42
jeffeossoPaul,
like I said, I wouldn't bother driving down to texas city if i could get Bill to do the same!!!
Marc,
I've seen Bill's A checkering,,, it's awesome, and VERY VERY fine.. Me, I am a 22LPI, and 20 will work.
jeffe
07 September 2006, 20:40
jstevensI'm in RichJ's group. I can bed an action, put on a pad, work on my own triggers, safeties, etc, and even tried to learn to checker. I have zero chance of ever learning to do it properly. I'd be glad to pay someone $100 to checker one.
A shot not taken is always a miss
07 September 2006, 20:44
malmquote:
Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Oh wow, I realize that did come out wrong! I was in no way intentionally implying that Bill was not a skilled craftsman.
But it is a simple fact of life that custom makers (of anything-not just guns) cut corners and are not on their "A Game" when offering different price points for labor. Why would some one do the exact same work for a lesser price? that is what I was trying to say or mean that Bill could not do it right when on his "A Game."
When making a gun to get in the Guild, you do it to a different level than you will when you have a low-ball customer. We all need to set a level that we will not drop below and stick to it.
If you don't intend to impune or question ones talents or the outcome based on the cost of the job, then perhaps you should just stop right there.
Who said anything about the "guild". The guy was wanting to know if there was a potential market for producing a simple checkering pattern for regular folks who can't afford a "guild" gun. Those who think they sit on the mountain top aren't the only game in town. A skilled gunmaker/craftsman can be every bit as talented and capable as any "Guild" member, and still be decent enough to give a shit about the folks who can't afford to purchase their "A game" goods.
Bill, I think a low cost pattern might be just what the doctor ordered for folks looking to "get a grip" without spending an arm and a leg. For those who wish to spend more, there is Marc.
07 September 2006, 22:30
ramrod340quote:
Paul,
like I said, I wouldn't bother driving down to texas city if i could get Bill to do the same!!!
I'm to lazy to drive to Texas City. Cheaper to call and ship than drive there from Katy.
I have not seen Bill's checkering in person (that I know of) but from the pictures I would be more than happy. A craftsman can still apply the same quality and reduce the price. He doesn't cut corners he simply reduces the size and complexity of the pattern. Was looking at having the tank on my bike painted. I could have the same guy paint a small scheme on each side. Or cover the entire tank. Same guy same quality just less time.
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
07 September 2006, 22:32
browningguyWhat address should I send my stock too?
Browningguy
Houston, TX
We Band of 45-70ers
07 September 2006, 23:53
MKane160Yeah, Bill, I've got one I need checkered right now. Where do I send it?
MKane160
P.S. I trust your style, Bill. 22lpi and have at it....
You can always make more money, you can never make more time...........LLYWD. Have you signed your donor card yet?
08 September 2006, 00:18
ramrod340Darn I better get in line!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
08 September 2006, 00:31
duikermanA simple pattern is offered by Ahlman's INC of Morristown MN and for $50.
I sent a 22 rimfire stock there for this service and I was very pleased. It was very good but as stated it was a simple pattern.
Frankly it was more than enough to make the rifle look finished!
08 September 2006, 00:45
270Model70Bill,
Please keep us posted if you offer this service.
08 September 2006, 01:07
22WRFI think it would be a great service if the waiting time wasn't too long. In fact, I have one I could send right now if I knew I was going to get it back in a reasonable amount of time.
I am sure you will pick the right pattern to offer. My suggestion would be that it be one that you could do at least one a day so the wait time was not very long.
08 September 2006, 02:00
zimbabweI have 2 laminates I will have done as soon as you list address and price.
SCI Life Member
NRA Patron Life Member
DRSS
08 September 2006, 02:13
RiodotI'll have to get in line for 2 stocks myself.
Lance
Lance Larson Studio
lancelarsonstudio.com
08 September 2006, 04:47
Bill SovernsHoly CRAP!!!
I suppose I used the wrong word when I said budget. By that I mean 22 lpi and no rolling to the inside of the grip or around the forend etc. The checkering will always be done very well there just wont be as MUCH of it.
I will still offer higher priced checkering where the customer can ask for special features etc but I wanted to offer a service that was reasonably priced, fast to turnaround and still looks well done.
There will be two points on each grip panel, and the forend panel will have two points. Let me find some pictures of what Im talking about and I will post again.
08 September 2006, 05:56
Tex21Bill,
I'm pretty sure that most of us get the jist of what you would be offering here and frankly, I'd bet that you have just as much work as you would care to take on.
Jason
"Chance favors the prepared mind."
08 September 2006, 05:58
browningguyJust remember Bill, I asked for the address to ship to first. I'd trust your good taste to give me something decent for the money.
Browningguy
Houston, TX
We Band of 45-70ers
08 September 2006, 21:31
triggerguard1quote:
Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
Holy CRAP!!!
I suppose I used the wrong word when I said budget. By that I mean 22 lpi and no rolling to the inside of the grip or around the forend etc. The checkering will always be done very well there just wont be as MUCH of it.
I will still offer higher priced checkering where the customer can ask for special features etc but I wanted to offer a service that was reasonably priced, fast to turnaround and still looks well done.
There will be two points on each grip panel, and the forend panel will have two points. Let me find some pictures of what Im talking about and I will post again.
I think you have a great idea.....look forward to seeing some of the pics too.
Do you think you'd have any chance of some volume discounts with say the exact pattern over the same style of stocks in quantities of 25-50??
Williams Machine Works
08 September 2006, 21:51
333_OKHI am very interested. I personally like some of the old basic checkering found on English rifles from the 20s and 30s.
08 September 2006, 22:47
larrysI definitely want to get in line ahead of Matt. I have one I would send, if you don't laugh at the inletting out loud. The points on the forend are already ahead of Ruger.
Larry
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson
08 September 2006, 23:08
snowcatBill-
22 LPI, two panel point borderless foreend and grip, less than two month turn around, $75 plus shipping. I, would personally send you three stocks the day you announced. Your high end work is superb, at what, two jobs per day (?) a guy might just make a living in the gun business.
Please let us know when you decide and I wish you luck.
Jay Kolbe
09 September 2006, 00:24
Bill SovernsThis is the pattern I have in mind.......
22 lpi 3 to 1 diamonds.
$85 plus return shipping. Alterations to this pattern can be done but the cost will be more.
Im finishing a high end job right now so I will not start any work until 09/15/06. All stocks must be shipped via USPS (no ups here) and will be returned in the same manner. If you want insurance please make sure to note it. Payment by personal check or certified funds.
ADDRESS:
SCG
P.O. Box 131
Nisland, SD
57762
email with questions
bsoverns@sdplains.com
09 September 2006, 00:39
ramrod340quote:
This is the pattern I have in mind.......
You are going to be swamped. May I suggest you put together a waiting line. So the owner isn't without his stock for longer than needed. More important to keep you from having to rent a place to stack the ones in line.
As usual just my $.02
Paul K
09 September 2006, 02:46
MKane160Bill, I hope I'm not subverting your intentions here, but could you give a price for alterations to that basic pattern? Say, the extra cost to pattern around the forearm? Or to dupe an existing pattern (the Kimber 8400 on the Custom Classic)? Or, to include a small pattern over the top of the grip? Or are all of the above normally priced on a time basis?
If we had a wait list, could we keep our stocks until, say, a week before our turn and ship them off then?
I'm sorry if your original offer was a special price for a large, two topping pizza and I just asked how much more for an additional two toppings and thin crust...... :-)
MKane160
You can always make more money, you can never make more time...........LLYWD. Have you signed your donor card yet?
09 September 2006, 02:59
Bill SovernsMkane,
For what you are asking...
Saddle panel (over the grip)
Wrap around forend with kickers.
at 22lpi is $280. 24lpi is $330.
For duplication of production checkering I will need to see a picture. Hope this helps.
09 September 2006, 16:45
Bill SovernsOne of the grips are close.......none of the forends. They all look like wrap arounds and I simply wont include a wrap for $85
09 September 2006, 19:39
Don Markeyquote:
Originally posted by TC1:
Build it and they will come, but only if you don't laugh at the inletting.
Terry
Will you charge extra to not laugh at the inletting?
-Don
09 September 2006, 19:54
Bill SovernsFrom what I see here I suspect I wont even have time to look. And laughing at someone elses work is not in my nature. Unless Im looking at some of my own first stocks.....
11 September 2006, 02:59
333_OKHquote:
They all look like wrap arounds and I simply wont include a wrap for $85
I understand completely and I actually would prefer not to have a full wrap around, but to have a pattern that matched the classic English grip patterns on the above rifles in two panels.
11 September 2006, 04:06
Bill SovernsAlterations to the standard pattern will cost extra. Find me a picture of the two panel job on the forend and I will give you a price.
11 September 2006, 04:45
Mike_Dettorrebill,
This a great service. Some people ewuate cost with quality which isn't always the same.
Now here is something that may raise a few eyebrows and will raise more to than that for those that actually don't read carefully...
The rational person always chooses the lowest total cost option (including soft costs) provided it meets the Specification.
It's all in defining the Specification. Is your specification checkering that looks like "art work" or checkering that is clean crisp symterical and prevents the rifle from falling out of your hands.
The only reason I want checkering is to assist my crip.
Many folks will recieve more than $340 of utility from a $340 checkering job...me I will receive well over $100 of utility from Bill"s $85 checkering job.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
11 September 2006, 06:12
tiggertatequote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
The only reason I want checkering is to assist my crip.
With what is your crip afflicted that checkering assists?
"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
11 September 2006, 09:25
Mike_DettorreIt's my crip grip
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
