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I just mounted A leupold 1.5 X 5 on my cz 550 in .375 H&H. I used Talley QD rings and everything came together just fine. ALMOST! Like every other scope I've ever mounted (5-6), the reticle is not quite square. It's canted clockwise every so slightly. In fact, I have to sight through the scope and hold it a few seconds to notice. I've tried turning it in small increments but it only makes it worse the other way. In the past, I've tried boresighters, reticle leveling gizmos, etc.. The issue is that the scope requires so much force to move that you can't make fine adjustments, or it shifts when I tighten the ring screws. Is there a way to fix this? Is it unavoidable? Am I incompetent? | ||
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I have been down this road also. If you look at the crosshairs from behind the stock, they will appear different than if you shoulder the gun naturally. Also if you wear glasses it will appear different than if you look through them with your glasses off. I have looked through other peoples guns and theirs appeared off by an eigth of a turn, while they said that it looked straight to them.It is best to get them so that they look level when you shoulder the gun and leave it alone. I have tried the levelers too, but it didn't feel right when I threw it up. Now I just set it and forget it. | |||
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I put the rifle in a rifle vise and use a level to make sure it it just that...level. Install bottom half of rings and lay level on them to check level again. Place scope in rings and with scope adj caps off lay the level on the scope and turn scope until bubble is in the middle. Tighten up rings and you should have everything straight. Works for me anyway. | |||
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Sometimes split rings will cause a scope to shift as they are tightened, only recourse being to fiddle with it. Kind of like leading a dove... | |||
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Thanks for the feedback. If nothing else, you've all made me feel better! It sounds like I'm close enough. | |||
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Citori3, Anything less than perfect is not close enough. If your scope is canted counter-clockwise and you make an elevation adjustment you will at the same time make a windage change. Conversely when you make a windage change it will also change your elevation. Sighting in will become an exercise in futility as you can't make one adjustment without affecting the other. Jim | |||
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I think I spend more time trying to make sure the reticle is level on my rifles than on load developement. It drives me nuts to think that they are canted one way or another. It is interesting to note that they are almost always turned slightly clockwise. One thing I have noticed, when they are perfectly level, they "look" like they have been twisted counter clockwise when the rifle is shoulderd. It is good to have them level as Jim and others have pointed out. You are eliminating another variable to a muffed shot. | |||
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Leveling the rifle first is the best way to be true but unless the gun is fitted to you, the scope will probably look canted when shouldered. This is what frustrates people so. It is still better to have the reticle true to the bore than true to your hold. | |||
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Quote: I use this method also, except after I get the rifle level in the vice I hang a plumb-bob (piece of red yarn with a weight at the bottom) from a door frame about 35ft away. I align the vertical part of the cross-hairs with the yarn through the scope. The yarn is perfectly vertical (gravity). Doing it this way, the only variable is getting the rifle level. It's always worked for me. Terry | |||
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I've stopped worrying since I acquired the Segway reticle leveler sold by Sinclair. It may look like a cheap plastic gadget (which it is) but it's really worth its salt for mounting a scope square. | |||
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I put the rifle in the vise and back off far enough so I can see the butt plate and draw an imaginary line from the bottom butt plate screw to the top one and continue right up through the cross-hairs! After that, it's just a little fidgeting to get the scope level! This subject also explains why, when you shoot someone else's rifle, you don't hit the same as they do! Also, as mentioned earlier if the scope is canted one way or the other, and you move the elevation, it also changes the windage and vise versa! | |||
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Try this... Make SURE the gun is UNLOADED. Get a large white paper, draw a Straight Black line on it. Level the gun, mark the highest and lowest point at the end of the stock. Put those marks against the Black line. Look down the Scope from the Wrong end. Line up the Vertical Recital Bar with the Black line. Tighten it up while checking the alignment. | |||
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I agree that this "little job" has a very high PITA factor (PITA=pain in the ass). I like TC1's plumb bob idea and will try it in the future. | |||
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Quote: I recently did something along these lines- I leveled the scope bases with the rifle in a vise, and used a vertical plumb line drawn on a card stapled to a wall and lined the reticle up with that. yeah I used a level to draw the line  -tincan | |||
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I use one of the bullet levels. The levels that are about 6 inches long. Basically, I check the level of the rifle across the bottom half of the rings and clamp the rifle snugly in the vice. Recheck the level. Carefully place the scope in the rings. Set the level across the elevation cap. Level the scope and slowly snug the rings with the level in place. Viola! | |||
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I do the level the action in a vise/ clamped bench rest/and aim at a plum steel pipe post outback to plum the cross hairs . Tightin the ring screws carefully while checking the cross hairs to the plum post. Pretty simple and fast. | |||
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Quote: I disagree with this. The scope has no idea where it is mounted in relation to the rest of the rifle. The chamber is round, the bullet is round, it just doesn't matter. What does matter more than the reticle being square to the gun is it being square when you shoulder the weapon. Otherwise when you shoulder it, it will be canted at the moment you fire the weapon.This can cause a "theoretical" variation in POI from when it was sighted in at the bench with the gun perfectly perpendicular. In reality, it makes very little difference either way at intelligent shooting distances. bowhuntrrl | |||
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Ah, you reach the heart of the matter. It isn't too important within usual huntig ranges; only for the really long range boys. | |||
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It makes a very big difference at any range. Once you have it tuned in it does'nt really make a whole bunch of difference if you cant the rifle when you hold it but how in the Hell are you going to accurately sight your rifle when making an elevation correction affects your windage and vice versa? Think about what your saying here guys. | |||
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I think that you are wrong when saying that if you cant the rifle it doesn't make any difference. If you cant to the right you will be low right and vice versa if you cant left. That is why I propose that when you throw the rifle up and the crosshairs look level with your natural hold, that is where you want them. Who here can throw their gun up when that big one is standing there and remember to check if your crosshairs are perfectly level when your natural hold cants the gun slightly?  My vote goes for what feels good on a hunting rifle. A target rifle is entirely a different matter. | |||
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Jim; You said; "how in the Hell are you going to accurately sight your rifle when making an elevation correction affects your windage and vice versa? Think about what your saying here guys." What I was getting at is: If the reticle is canted either way, and you are hitting low, it will take a verticle adjustment and a windage adjustment to get the reticle properly aligned with the bullseye! Say your scope was canted like this (X) (the top/left of the X is verticle and the top/right is your windage), and you wanted to move your impact straight up, you can't just move the verticle, because in this example, you would move your impact approximately 45 degrees to the left, you need to move the windage too! | |||
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I do the gun vice level the rifle plumb line thing also, but I take it one more step..... I've put a scope level on most of my rifles (looks like a scope ring with a bubble)and practice holding my rifle level EVERY time I shoulder it. Don't know how much of a difference it makes, but it makes me fill better anyway. CSJ | |||
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I've always been fastidious about lining up reticles with guns, but one of my hunting partners likes the rifle canted a little to suit his wrist, and lines up the reticle to match. For the distance we ordinarily shoot, it doesn't make much of an error in his point of impact. I dunno. If you sight in a rifle with a canted reticle at 200 yards, the error is minimal compared to the other things that commonly go wrong. | |||
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Chuck, Can you tell me what the difference is in my post and what you said in yours? If your scope is mounted plumb and square to the bore and you could do it without disturbing the zero, you could rotate the body of the scope to any point in a 360 degree circle and at a given range where the crosshairs intersect is where the bullet would strike. | |||
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If the cross hairs are square, plumb, flush and all that, when you shoulder the rifle, you will adjust your hold so the rifle is not canted. After a few goes, the cant will go away. Which is good. | |||
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Quote: Yeah, I used to waste my time fighting it, but I use this one and another similar device to fit 95% of rifles I mount scopes on. These are fast and easy and require no setup or clamping, etc.. With the very few I cannot get to work with these two reticle leveling devices, I use a machinist's level as posted above. Problem is, even if they are perfectly level, they can STILL look canted. Go figure. | |||
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JIM: I reread your post! I misunderstood and now stand corrected! I guess this one just got a little long winded! | |||
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I have one more thing to add. If you have the rifle canted say 1/4th of an inch to the right, but have the scope so the crosshairs are level when the gun is canted, which happens to be how you naturally hold the gun, and the gun is sighted at 200 yards, how much will the bullet deviate from the aiming point along it's path out to 400 yards? Answer 1/4th inch. And that is at the barrel and at 400 yards. In between it will be less. At 200 yards it will be dead on. Anybody here care to claim that 1/4th inch along a bullets path under hunting conditions will make a difference? You cound stand the gun on its side and sight it in and it would only be off 1.5 inches max on it's whole journey. I say go for the natural hold, cause under pressure, it will be the one that you use. | |||
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My theory (and only a theory ) is that righthanded shooters tend to cant their rifles clockwise because of less than optimum stock fit. A lack of sufficient cast-off forces the shooter to push his cheek over the top of the butt to align his eye with the scope, creating a "cant" to the right. | |||
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I have a question about these comments relating to windage and elevation adjustment. Am I the only guy that mounts the scope, adjusts it to hit 1.5" to 2" high at 100 yards, and pretty much leaves it alone? I verify zero before each use, but that's about it. I took a rifle course several years ago and was staggered by the teachers' ability to get all of us to hit the vital zone consistently from 100 yards out to 500 yards. We figured out the elevation adjustments required for each 100 yard increment by trial and error. We then wrote these down and repeatability was amazing. However, that was prone, from a rest, at a known yardage, and with all the time in the world. In real life situations, I don't have these luxuries! I see the deer (W/I 250 yards), figure out about how far it is (W/I +/- 50 yards), find the best rest I can, and shoot a little high if it seems really far. This usually works pretty well. Does this make me a bad person? Tanzania in 2006! Had 141 posts on prior forum as citori3. | |||
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No...I think that makes you a hunter who is smart enough to learn his rifle and ammunition!  | |||
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With all due respect I believe you are confusing vertical trajectory of a bullet with horizontal deviation caused by canting or wind. Gravity works down, not sideways, and horizontal deviation has no “arc†where the bullet changes direction and returns and crosses the line of sight at some point during its flight. I agree with you however that canting a rifle does not produce huge deviations in POA/POI at normal hunting ranges...but I also believe that canting is only “natural†if you have a stock that isn’t designed properly for you. | |||
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On of th easist ways I ahve found to level a scope is put in a good bipod on a level floor find a nice level wall edge or croner and line the cross hairs up with that. | |||
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I lay a 6" steel rule across the top of the scope base and align the horizontal crosshair parallel to it. | |||
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http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=529349 This thing works..............  ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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I have used one of these for years and it seems to be the fastest, easiest, and most versatile (works with any rifle scope combo) and levels the rifle and scope with one bubble. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=6097&s=14989 | |||
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You are correct, but why would anyone want to deal w/ a left to right bullet path being 1/4" left at mz, 1/8" left at 100, dead on at 200, 1/8" right at 300, 1/4" right at 400, etc, etc....this in addition to the vertical rise and fall of the bullet w/ the line of sight and wind?...Am I holding the rifle w/ the correct cant?... Reminds me why I hate my M1 sniper rifle. If I mount a conventional scope, it is mounted w/ the reticle square above the receiver. If there is a problem w/ his scope binding in the rings and he has trouble mounting it square, sounds to me like his rings need lapping. Gary | |||
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If, with your scope mounted, you adjust your scope in the vertical plane (you know, the knob that says U or D with an arrow) and the impacts on target stay on the same vertical line (no deviation right or left), then your scope is "level". Who cares whether it "looks" level compared to the rifle stock? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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If you have your scope mounted directly over the centerline axis of the bore and you cant the rifle then the scope will need BOTH windage and elevation adjustments to bring things back to where they would have been if you just held the rifle level in the first place. I guess if you’re too lazy or too cheap to get a stock that fits you and allows you to comfortably hold your rifle level then this is one option to consider.  | |||
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Hey Rick, how does that thing from Brownells work? I'm infamous for ordering stuff and figuring out how, or trying to, after I get it. Thinking of giving that Midway thing Ol Joe showed a try as well, but was wanting the Brownells piece you showed also. One other thing--I'm just curious, Bowhuntrrl, stated something like 'the chamber is round, the bore in the barel is round, how does it know the diff?' what's wrong with that theory? I kind of like it..... Just wondering--Don | |||
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