I am about to do my final sanding on my boyd stock for my winchester and had some bedding questions. My barrel is free floated all the way to the reciever, should I bed under the chamber area of the barrel? And how many in/lbs do you usaly tighten a win stock and is there a order of tightening the screws? never had a 3 screw reciever before.

I plan on staining this and coating with poly before I bed this. I know alot of people like to use tru oil on stocks but I have a can of poly sittin here. any advise is welcome. thanks Jeremy

I always fully bed receiver and barrel on all my rifles. I NEVER free float a barrel. Tighten front and rear bolts firmly (didn't have an inch pounds wrench till recently) and middle screw just snug. If you have a barrel boss screw I just snug them up.

I should ad that this gun is being built for varmint hunting and maybe a few informal benchrest matches this is why I free floated the barrel it is a heavy barral and the stock has a wide flat fore arm

Bedding out to the chamber area is the only way I fly on any of my rifles......

I would also reccomend bedding the bottom metal as well.

As far as the screw tightening sequence, I like to go back and forth between front and back several times, while keeping the middle just snug....During this process, I'm looking and making sure that the floorplate is able to open and close properly and isn't going into a bind, or becoming too loose. About 45-50inch lbs is adequate for the front and rear and even less can be done reliably.......Believe it or not, it's not nearly as critical as some would have you to believe, especially on a hunting rifle.

The major problem you can get into with this project is the magazine box being too long and having the middle guard screw bottom out on it. It will cause the mag box and the guard to be sandwiched between the two and accuracy will take a nose dive.
Do a test run on your assembly before you bed everything up and make sure that the box is not causing a bind. You should be able to flip open the floorplate and reach inside the mag box and move it up and down slightly....(.020-.040") is about where I like the gap. If you can't do this, it will need to be sanded to ensure that when the rifle is completely assembled, it isn't in a bind any longer.
You can bed the top-end of your rifle first and comeback to the bottom metal section the next day if you choose, or you can bed them at the same time. Kind of a flip of a coin either way and I've had great results with both methods.

Ohh....and keep your barrel floated. 9 times outta 10 that's the way to fly for not only the accuracy, but the consistency as well.

Thanks Matt I didnt know about the magazine box needing clearance

I would normally glass about 2"s under the chamber...I relieve contact on both sides and bottom of the recoil lug with only contact on the rear face and this is important in a Win. Mod. 70 IMO..I bed the recoil lug and tang also.

I start with a fully inletted barrel and action, bedded tight, I shoot as I go..keeping in mind that I can take material out but I cannot put it back..

If it does not shoot bedded tight, I will go to the above 3 point bedding with pressure on the forend...Shoot it, then maybe go to the free floated barrel as per the first paragraph, that is the one that usually works pretty well...

It is a process of elimanation to get your best accuracy..when it shoots great then stop right there...

As to the bottom metal, the magazine box should fit very precisly, not sloppy, but not binding..The same goes for free floating a barrel, you still should not be able to see a gap between barrel a and wood, a very thin line of wood should touch where the wood and metal meet along the barrel channel so as to keep out debris etc. The rest of the circumfrence of the barrel should be free all the way around.

At least thats the way I do it in wood or glass.

Also I believe that I would rather have a 1.5" gun that shot a clover leaf group than a 1" gun for instance that shot a stringing group..consistancy is a key element for a hunting rifle.

pretty hard to make the magazine box fit too sloppy and cause a problem, but working hard to get it fitting too precisely will have you working it over again. No need to get carried away, but it's far from what I'd call precise, compared to free-floating a barrel or the rest of the wood-to-metal fits on the gun.

I'm finding that this two piece trigger gaurd is a pain. I cant bring myself to spend the money for the one piece. I'm going to bed the chamber area of the barrel and leave about .010 to .020 free in the magizine area. Then take it out and shoot it and see how she shoots if I need to I can take more bedding out or trim off more of the magizine if needed

Bedding under the chamber, especially on a target rifle, is a sure way to invite vertical dispersion. This is even more likely if the rifle is used with a tight sling.
The two piece bottom metal is not a problem and may even be beneficial in that the screws establish the relationship between the front hinge plate and the trigger guard.
It is possible to bed the M70 so that the middle screw becomes a real part of the bedding system and adds integrity to the whole assembly.
I drill a 5/8 hole through the stock at the location of both the front and rear guard screw. I just clean some wood out behind the screw in the middle.
I install the mag box on the action, keeping it in place with a bit of masking tape if necessary. I fold a piece of .010" shim stock over the box at front and rear (to establish the right clearance between it and the bottom metal). I wrap tape around the barrel at the forarm tip location until the barrel is held at the right level and centered in the channel. I do the same thing just ahead of the receiver. I also tape the front , sides and bottom of the recoil lug with two layers of tape. I also tape the square rear surface under the tang for clearance.
I remove the floorplate from the hinge plate. I check to make sure everything will fit into the stock sitting right with no interference. I then apply release agent (I use paste wax, thinned with Varsol).
I hold the hinge plate and the trigger guard, along with the accompanying screws, in place with tape (besure and put release agent on those screws too!). Ithen mix up my bedding compound (I like Acraglas). I add plenty of floc to make it quite thick but not so thick I can't get it down around the screws. I put the mixture down around the screws. I then add more floc to the remaining mix and put it into the stock. I also put mix on the receiver behind the lug, behind the box, and along the sides. also at the tang. This eliminates voids.
I put the barreled action into the stock. The screws are turned in just to where they hold the bottom metal in place. The barreled action is held in place by gravity and located by the screws. I turn the screws in until they are just starting to pull down on the action, then back off just until they are not. The one other thing is to just stick the floorplate into the hinge plate and make sure the floor plate aligns with the trigger guard, side to side. That, is all there is to it (Unless I left soemthing out). Regards, Bill

On Model 70 and Rem 700 I have the barrel completely free floating. I have no bedding between the tang and front receiver ring. On actions that have the front screw right at the front of the receiver such as older Sakos, Vanguard/Howa and Wby Mark V I have about 3/4" bedding at the chamber of the barrel.

For barrel location I use tape and just behind the tape I have a little bit of the quick setting filler like body filler. When set I remove barreled action and then the tape from the barrel. I also use very small sections of the body filler for action location. In Australia we have stuff called Plasti Bond which is like a very grade versrion of body filler and that is what I use for location.

I don't like to leave tape as the barrel locator as the barrel can creep as the epoxy cures.

I use headless screws.

Devcon Steel and Devcon spray on mould release.

On a Model 70 make sure that you have some tape on the back of the tang thread extender block otherwise it can act as a recoil lug.

I put a steel rod in the scope mounts.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Bedding under the chamber, especially on a target rifle, is a sure way to invite vertical dispersion. This is even more likely if the rifle is used with a tight sling.

I've sure sent out a lot of invites, but nobody came to the party...

The truth is adding the middle screw adds nothing to the integrity of the system and quite the contrary.

quote:

The two piece bottom metal is not a problem and may even be beneficial in that the screws establish the relationship between the front hinge plate and the trigger guard.

You don't have to rely on the screws or bedding to establish that relationship, if the bottom metal is a one-piece....it's right from the start, regardless of how bad or good the inletting is, or how many times it's removed from the stock.......It's always the same.

Matt,
you will have to explain to me how the use of a third screw is detrimental to the integrity of the bed. Providing that proper support is provided for the third (middle) screw, I can't imagine that it is detrimental. I cast a fiberglass pillar at each screw location, including the middle one, and use all the screws.
One piece bottom metal is well and good providing it fits the screw spacing on the action. I have nothing against it. I also have nothing against the two piece metal. My comment regarding the juxtaposition of the floorplate and guard was meant to point out, if the screws are not vertical at one end or the other (in other words, if the action is faulty. It happens) the screws can locate the bottom metal to suit the screw. Not an ideal situation for sure but possibly better than trying push a misaligned screw into alignment with the guard. I don't find it any more difficult to build stocks for either system. I guess what I'm trying to say ( I've certainly belaboured the point!) is, the two piece bottom metal is not a big deal or shortcoming. On any of my own model 70s on which I have used one piece metal, I have provided for the third screw. I know you make and sell one piece bottom metal. I've used it and like it. I think it is a good product. My most accurate long range target rifle using a Model 70 action is bedded only on the front two screws and the tang is floated. That middle screw can indeed be a working component of the bedding system. On this particular rifle the rear of the trigger guard is held up by a wood screw.
Only rarely have I found bedding under the barrel shank to be beneficial and never on a model 70. Those rifles which do better with the barrel shank bedded are those in which the front guard screw threads into the recoil lug located right at the front of the action (eg. the Sako). If there is any bedding surface on the receiver forward of the screw, a fully floated barrel is better. Regards, Bill.

Bill

I have heard and read somewhere that some gunsmiths epoxy bed a nut in the middle of the action, cut the middle screw down and don't let it screw into the action at all

Wouldn't this be easier. why do you think they do this ?

regards
S&F

The middle screw is good for nothing but holding the trigger guard on.........that's it.

It's true I make one-piece bottom metal, but I also make the two-piece models as well.

In a one-piece you have a solid piece of steel that attached to the receiver at its outermost extremes and does not flex or shift, and could care less how good an inlet job you've just done. They're also nearly twice the thickness, allowing more torque on the screws and a more stable platform underneath.

You can bed rifles with the two-piece system as you've described and other ways as well, achieving good accuracy, but it's far and away more difficult to do so than using a one-piece.

Winchester's brainstorm was nothing other than a cost-cutting measure over Mauser's design and as factory issued, was not nearly as good in terms of bedding. With some fiddling around and patience you can get it to work fine, but the middle screw is something that's purely not necessary if you go the one-piece route.

Most folks will leave the middle screw loose enough, so as not to place pressure on the mag box, fouling up your accuracy......Others will try and use a pillar system it can bottom out on before it reaches the mag box. If the screw is left too loose, the floorplate can have trouble closing, since it can hit the inside of the floorplate.

As far as the screw holes not lining up on the action to the bottom metal......Out of all the screw-ups that Winchester has made over the years, I've yet to have one that wouldn't line up in that department. That is one thing that they have consistently gotten right since their inception.
After making and selling tens of thousands of these to not only gunmakers, but USRAC directly, we've yet to have an issue with any of our customers that the holes didn't line up.

Also, the guard screws are .250" diameter, with the through hole both the one-piece and two-piece models being .268".....times that by two, and that's a fair amount of play as well for alignment.

"In a one piece you have a solid piece of steel that.....and does not flex or shift".
I'm sorry Matt, but that's pure BS. The one piece guard will flex a hell of a lot easier than will the receiver. We know the receiver will flex. That's why we go through all the trouble to glass bed it.
Those who think two screwswill hold something more securely than three, by all means eliminate the third screw.
In my limited experience I have seen misaligned screws from every manufacturer including some of the custom action makers. The bigger hole doesn't mean squat because the screws use a taper seat which will center itself. Perhaps this is not a big deal- in the average hunting rifle it probably is not -but when building target rifles, any little thing might count. By the way, when I speak of misaligned screws I'm speaking in thousandths not in fractions.
I have built a bunch of hunting rifles on Model 70 actions where I have used one piece bottom metal and have eschewed the use of the center screw and I know it works just fine. I just don't think it is better than using all three screws with the middle screw part of the bedding system.
The middle screw will not put pressure on the magazine box if the rifle is bedded correctly.
If one feels the concept of using all three screws is indeed too complex, he should absolutely avoid it whether he uses one or two piece bottom metal.
My point is only that the two piece metal is not a problem any more than one piece metal is.
I gave a quick description of my method for bedding a Model 70 as I do my own as well as those for others. Like all my techniques, it is there for any to use- or not -as they wish. I happen to think the third screw can be a viable part of the bed and adds integrity to the system. Plainly, you do not. I happen to think the bedding of the bottom metal (1 or 2 piece)is critical to the result. Plainly, you do not.
As I said before, I do like your products and use them happily so at least you've got me there! Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
"In a one piece you have a solid piece of steel that.....and does not flex or shift".
I'm sorry Matt, but that's pure BS. The one piece guard will flex a hell of a lot easier than will the receiver. We know the receiver will flex. That's why we go through all the trouble to glass bed it.

I think we need to redefine the differences between "bedding" and "inletting".......

The inletting can be quite sloppy on a one piece and still function quite well, which is something you can't do with a 2-piece.

I recommend bedding to all of my customers on the bottom metal, regardless of the stock manufacturer, material, or the end user's use for the rifle.

quote:

happen to think the bedding of the bottom metal (1 or 2 piece)is critical to the result. Plainly, you do not.

Not sure where you drew that conclusion from, but I think my own statement above explains my position on that.

The third screw theory has become one of much entertainment to me.......I've found a few folks that truely believe that putting screw in a tapped hole added rigidity to the action......Others like yourself, believe it adds to the strength of the bedding........

It's there for one reason and one reason only........a cheap way to hold the trigger guard on.
From a custom gunmakers perspective, it can be built to work, but from a manufacturers standpoint, it's a total disaster that Winchester proved over and over again.

I think that many custom gunbuilders and target shooters have proven that not only is the one-piece a more rigid system, but by far and away the easiest to obtain great results with.
I've bedded many of both, and the 2-piece is a PIA to get truely right.

Last, but certainly not least, is the fact that with a one-piece bottom metal, you have a solid and firm piece of steel that is twice the thickness of the factory hinge connected to the trigger guard, from one end to the other. The 2-piece system has the hinge all by itself with one screw in the middle.....The trigger guard is by itself with 2 screws. They are never connected with any remote form of integrity, irrespective of the bedding or inletting.

With the exception of the M40-A1, which has since been replaced; all military and LEO sniper rifles employ the use of a one-piece system. For probably 95% of rifles with a floorplate being built into custom rifles they use a one-piece system.

I have one particular customer who's building tactical rifles on McMillan stocks and using our bottom metal that guarantees 1/4MOA with Federal premium ammo.....His new line of rifles will be 1/8MOA guaranteed. I've yet to see any of them that he's built that haven't exceeded 1/8MOA so far and all he uses is a one-piece system. He's built the M40-A1's, but his thoughts echo mine it what it takes to ring the accuracy out of one.

I never said you couldn't make one shoot that has the 2-piece, but anyone who's done both will quickly know which is the better system for fit, installation, and functioning.

Matt

I prefer the two piece.

I have never seen the one piece M70s (taken apart) but if they are like Rem700/SakoPre75/WbyM5 then I will take the M70 two piece. That business of trying to juggle the floorplate and magazine into the floorplate recess is a pain.

I also liked the early Made in USA Mark Vs with the steel 2 piece. A very refined version still comes on the custom shop barreled actions. Although it has that pain in the arse floorplate release inside the trigger guard.

Several years ago Wby told me that they discontinued to the steel 2 piece because of weight but also the rifle assembly. Yet the two piece is the easiest to assemble.....screws loose, close floorplate, tighten screws

I also like the very large area of metal under the front screw of the 2 piece M70s.

And as Bill Leeper has said you can handle the middle screws as a bedding pull down or just to hold in the trigger guard.

And Matt....His new line of rifles will be 1/8MOA guaranteed. I've yet to see any of them that he's built that haven't exceeded 1/8MOA so far and all he uses is a one-piece system

That is big time accuracy. Win any benchrest competition.


Mike