My Brno ZG-47 in 9.3x62, the third I have owned, has very slight, large "damascenes" on the bolt, my minty .30-06 does not not did the other pristine .06 I used to have.

I HAVE seen 21-22 series rifles with exactly this type of bolt jeweling and there is a LOT of variation in these Brnos, as various photos and rifles I have seen in my 45 years of active gun buying...gunaholism?... has shown me.

SO, learned gentlemen, IS this factory or not???? I kinda hope not as I have a Micky AHR synthetic handle coming and want to put a Satterlee safety on this rifle. I like very fine, precise bolt jeweling and will feel better about have Ralf Martini do this to an already altered rifle.

Anyone know?????

Asking for an "absolute" answer is like asking for a personal interview with God...no matter what the varied opinions or who expresses them, it just ain't gonna happen.

My own OPINION is that they were not factory "jewelled". Back "in the day" I have owned a goodly number and seen many others, and have never seen one jewelled that anyone tried to pass as "original factory work". Having said that, it is always possible some were done, on special order or for some other reason. But, without provenance, such a claim would add no value to the rifle anyway, IMHO.

It's your rifle to use and enjoy anyhow, so I would suggest doing with it whatver makes YOU happy. Posterity has to take care of itself.

I don't really care about "value", I could double my money on this with a local phone call, no problem. I am just interested and, like you, I will do as I desire with it and that is having it properly damascened.

Some "gunsmith" glassbedded it and hung a Decelerator on it...literally, so, it is not reaally "collectible" as I use that term. BUT, I know of only 3-4 of these in B.C. and like you, I have more than 45 years messing with them.

I would bet that not more than 1000 of these were ever made and no rifle I have handled, not Obies, Rigbys, Purdey's, Holland's, Mannlichers and certainly not P-64s or Dakotas impress me as these do.

Interesting to me is your comment about so few being in B.C. these days. 25 years ago when I lived in Alberta and Saskatchewan they were fairly common in those two provinces, though most were in 7x57 not 9.3x62.

I always thought they were lovely rifles, but I did like a few others even better...for instance my collection of Dan'l Fraser bolt guns and single-shots. That's why I mainly traded off all my ZG-47s over time...to get something else which was as nice or perhaps even slightly better in my biased eyes, and which was new to me at the time.

They are indeed lovely, lovely rifles though, no matter what other factory gun they are compared against.

Nothing fancy about them. They just have a quality feel to them most rifles can't match.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:

I would bet that not more than 1000 of these were ever made and no rifle I have handled, not Obies, Rigbys, Purdey's, Holland's, Mannlichers and certainly not P-64s or Dakotas impress me as these do.

You would lose that bet. I would bet that there are a thousand here in Sweden alone. They are a very common rifle here.

You are correct in that they are much more rare in North America (paricularly in the US).

According to John Walter's book Rifles of the world, 20,000 were made between 1949 and 1963.

I like'em, and am thinking of building up a nice custom action on one...

John

I meant chambered in the Otto Bock cartridge as .30-06s ARE fairly common, while 7mm Mausers and .270Ws are rare, but, not as few as 9.3s.

I also should have posted that I compare these with other FACTORY rifles, in respect of fit and finish and only in handling with high grade British and other "custom" rifles. I will say that the bluing on these and 21/22 series rifles is BETTER than anything else I have ever seen, high end stuff included.

I like to find "beaters" to build functional synthetic-stocked hunting rifles on, or, slightly altered ones like this to re-stock and change the "controls" to the "Mod 70" type I am most comfortable with.

I find these the best serious hunting/defence rifles in my collection and use them more often than almost anything else.

The Brnos were/are most common around Vancouver and Winnipeg as the two major Canuck importers were there, and old man Epps, of course. There was also a major collector on the Prairies who had gazillions of them, lucky bugger, but, there are VERY few in 9.3 and a major interest in them.....very practical for serious B.C. hunting, in any case.

Any Fraser's you have just taking up space, well, they really SHOULD repose here in "the Colonies", eh wot, and I would cheerfully give them a new home!

No, my Swedish friend, I meant in 9.3 alone and am quite familiar with the total number ever produced. Tradex of Canada is currently importing scads of old Husqvarna, Mauser and some Brno guns from your country; I thought you guys were wise enough to ignore the U.N.-Euro gunbanning fascism...or, have you quietly devloped something SO good, a la, "Swedish blondes", that you will now allow we Canucks to buy all your old ones?

Terry, is yours an 8x64B or am I dreaming?

Hi Dewey

OK. It wasn't clear that you were talking about a specific calibre.

However, 9.3 x 62 is a pretty common calibre in the ZG-47's here in northern Europe. I have seen at least 12 myself in that calibre (and they were factory jobs too).

I am not sure why so many Swedish rifles are being sold by Tradex other than that many Swedes today seem more impressed by current factory rifles. Fine FN's, Obendorf Mausers, ZG-47's, Brno 21's and Brno 22's are just "old rifles" to most hunters and have very low resale value. It is easier to sell a used Rem 700!

For example, in the past month I have seen 3 Brno ZG-47 (in 30-06, 8 x 68, and 9,3 x62) and the ASKING price was under the equivalent of $CAD 400. Judging from the lengh of time that they were up for sale, I doubt if any sold for the asking price. Husqvarna's with FN commercial actions sell for even less.

John

Yes, mine is the 8X64B. I owned a slightly modified .30-06 for awhile also. I wanted to use it as a donor for a full custom but was told I would go to rifle hell if I cut it up.

You want to trade out the safety on on your ZG-47? I'll trade you a 3-position safety (Dakota, Satterlee or something like it) for your factory one. If your interested PM me.

Terry

I've owned 24 ZG-47s and looked over maybe a dozen others. None had jeweled bolts.

Several hundred 9.3x62s were made out of 20K total. You don't see many in the USA because they weren't imported here. Most I have came from Canada & Sweden where they seem to be more plentiful.

Less common are "hybrid" 21/22-ZG47s. That is, 21/22 receiver, trigger guard and stock but with ZG47 bolt and trigger group. This rifle has matching serial numbers on receiver and bolt. The trigger guard, which is usually cut for double sets, is cut for the ZG47 trigger:

I think that is probably correct and the several Brnos I have seen here with this jeweling were done by an importer in Toronto who also "dimpled" the rear bridge for P-H rings, this 9.3 is not so marked.

To show just how variable these are, I have a "roundbolt" 22H like that, BUT, with double triggers and that azzwipe left safety that allows the bolt to open when cocked. I had it modded to single trigger and have a 2-pos, wing safety a la Mod. 70 axis on it. The stock was mangled and I re-built it and had it re-chambered to .280Rem. It shoots like I cannot believe and I wouldn't part with it for anything.

I intend to put a Micky Edge on it and a better trigger than the Dayton-Traister I now have and probably invest in some nice bottom metal, maybe Jerry Fisher's "round" style.

Terry, PM to follow later today.

quote:

You would lose that bet. I would bet that there are a thousand here in Sweden alone. They are a very common rifle here.

You are correct in that they are much more rare in North America (paricularly in the US).

According to John Walter's book Rifles of the world, 20,000 were made between 1949 and 1963.

I like'em, and am thinking of building up a nice custom action on one...

John

I got 2 that are waiting for a better life 1 9,3x62 that are in very god condition and a 30-06 witch i am planing to rebarrel for the 8X68s i also got my greasy fingers on a m21 in 8x57s with dobubbel set triggers an a stock that needs to be replaced
I saw that you are from Umeå small World

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Haglund:

I got 2 that are waiting for a better life 1 9,3x62 that are in very god condition and a 30-06 witch i am planing to rebarrel for the 8X68s i also got my greasy fingers on a m21 in 8x57s with dobubbel set triggers an a stock that needs to be replaced
I saw that you are from Umeå small World

Hej Thomas

Jar arbete på SLU. Bor du i Umeå också? And more importantly, are you thinking of selling any of those crappy old rifles?

As an old girlfriend used to say, I need another rifle like a fish needs a bicycle -- but logic has nothing to do with this!

John

quote:

Originally posted by jpb:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Haglund:

I got 2 that are waiting for a better life 1 9,3x62 that are in very god condition and a 30-06 witch i am planing to rebarrel for the 8X68s i also got my greasy fingers on a m21 in 8x57s with dobubbel set triggers an a stock that needs to be replaced
I saw that you are from Umeå small World

Hej Thomas

Jar arbete på SLU. Bor du i Umeå också? And more importantly, are you thinking of selling any of those crappy old rifles?

As an old girlfriend used to say, I need another rifle like a fish needs a bicycle -- but logic has nothing to do with this!

John

Jo bor i Umeå. well iam not planing of selling those. Might trade as part payment for a stock duplicator for gunstocks,

They're not quite as good as their mythical status.

Poor stock geometry for optics use compounded by a high/thick bolt handle requiring at best medium rings. Back to front safety, long throats, often pitted from corrosive ammunition in 8x57 and 30-06.

Every action has a reaction - the value rise of these rifles is IMHO largely fuelled by increased demand as a result of increased internet exposure.

Face it an R93 is going to bag game more reliably, with greater accuracy, safety and durability. In fact I have it on good authority that women with loose morals and large breasts prefer R93 owners

I PREFER a higher scope mount as I hunt in actual remote wilderness where Grizzly encounters are a regular fact of life and this allows for much easier single loading, not to mention being able to utilize my scope field without the blur of my irons, which enables me to shoot faster and hit what I am shooting at.

The long throats are an advantage as I can then load to the maximum velocity and do so without excessive pressures. The pitting is from misuse and has jackshit to do with the quality of the rifle, it is also found in the highly over-rated and over-priced rifles from "perfidious Albion" as my purchases and use thereof long ago taught me.

I was impressed by these Brnos over 40 years ago as were a number of the most experienced real wilderness hunters/workers I have ever known, who chose these over anything else for decades of use here in B.C. This was LONG before Al Gore "invented" the internet..........

Anyone who actually "thinks" that an R93 is even a rifle is probably posting from H.M. "Ye Olde Bedlam", I mean, geezus murphy, that thing is as bad as a Tikka T3....no, it's WORSE !!!!

You Limeys DO have an odd sense of humour, but, since I very clearly recall YOU asking me if I would sell you my minty .30-06 about 3 years ago, I can only surmise that you have either been smoking some REALLY weird shit, or, watching too much Monty Python!!!!

R93, you say....pity!

As to the fair sex, a true British gentleman as many of my forbearers were, simply does not discuss such things, old boy.....women ALWAYS find out!

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I PREFER a higher scope mount as I hunt in actual remote wilderness where Grizzly encounters are a regular fact of life and this allows for much easier single loading, not to mention being able to utilize my scope field without the blur of my irons, which enables me to shoot faster and hit what I am shooting at.

The long throats are an advantage as I can then load to the maximum velocity and do so without excessive pressures. The pitting is from misuse and has jackshit to do with the quality of the rifle, it is also found in the highly over-rated and over-priced rifles from "perfidious Albion" as my purchases and use thereof long ago taught me.

I was impressed by these Brnos over 40 years ago as were a number of the most experienced real wilderness hunters/workers I have ever known, who chose these over anything else for decades of use here in B.C. This was LONG before Al Gore "invented" the internet..........

Anyone who actually "thinks" that an R93 is even a rifle is probably posting from H.M. "Ye Olde Bedlam", I mean, geezus murphy, that thing is as bad as a Tikka T3....no, it's WORSE !!!!

You Limeys DO have an odd sense of humour, but, since I very clearly recall YOU asking me if I would sell you my minty .30-06 about 3 years ago, I can only surmise that you have either been smoking some REALLY weird shit, or, watching too much Monty Python!!!!

R93, you say....pity!

As to the fair sex, a true British gentleman as many of my forbearers were, simply does not discuss such things, old boy.....women ALWAYS find out!

I've got 3. Prices are rising and we are to blame by bigging them up on the net . I want more hence I think R93s are better

You do have a point, but, nice specimens in common cals. here go for about 400 quid and are not hard to find. Evidently, Scandanavia is full of them and the ...large breasted women..., you like (me too) are also abundant there...a little "buying" trip, old boy?

I have not really seen a price increase HERE as most guys now want plastic/stainless T3s and other such, well, best not said!

Do you also use the little Brno .22s, the older ones are very common here and they are about as good as it gets in rimfires, IMHO. I simply change out all my safeties to the Mod. 70 type as that is what I am used to and so I never worry about that aspect of it.

Scarcity in the US is probably due to very high import duty levied on East Block stuff during Cold War.