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After having been a member here for a little over two years, it occurs to me that we all admire accuracy. And as, to one degree or another, rifle builders, we all have choices. Mr. Stokeld pointed out that the Mauser action isn't inherently the most accurate available. Still, for many and diverse reasons I love Mausers above all. Inherently accurate or not. Were accuracy alone important, I know all to well that there are many more accurate actions to begin with: Nesika, BAT, the Barnards that my boss builds. What's left then, is to do the best possible job I can in bedding, replace the military trigger with one better, find the best optics I can afford on my limited budget.... Most recently, I've been enjoying "tuning" my rifle. Making little changes here and there--my reloads, obviously, being most important--but really just optimizing what the rifle--and I--can shoot. With the exception of the reloads--which can have dramatic results--then, most of these changes aren't going to result in quantum leaps in accuracy. Taken together, perhaps a noticeable improvement. Since I shoot most every weekend, and the range is my outdoor time, it's nice to have some hoped-for benefit at every range trip. Am I the only one who enjoys tuning his rifle? flaco N.B. I know there are contributors here who believe in "hunting accuracy," and I think this is a fine concept. For them. I like the challenge, and I want to do better every week. Oh well. Rifle fever. Chronic and Severe. | ||
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Flaco, There are many different aspects to the sport and they are all good. I love M70s and nothing anyone says will ever change that. It is just a matter of personal preference. I am well aware that they are not the most accurate rifles or actions out there. Yes, I love tuning them whenever possible - Timney triggers, speedlocks, etc. IMO, Mr. Stokeld is the world's biggest butthead. After listening to a couple of minutes of his derogatory and abusive remarks it is highly unlikely that a new person would want to continue in the shooting sports at all. I am not a benchrest shooter, but enjoy reloading, shooting and hunting as much as I can. It sounds like you are enjoying what you are doing, so I would say go for it. There are losts of people on this forum with a much more positive attitude than Mr. Stokeld. And I have installed the Tubb Speedlock firing pin and spring in one of my M70s. Did it make any noticeable difference in accuracy? None that I can detect. However, its my rifle and my money and I will do as I wish. I would advise you to do the same, regardless of the naysayers. | |||
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Well Hell No Flaco. That's an integral part of the fever! I've got rifles that shoot supremely, and yet I'll sometimes take to developing a load for them with a different bullet even though the one they are set up with is perfectly fine for that rifles intended use. Wanting to do a tad better every trip to the range--that's the Holy Grail man!  Cheers--Don | |||
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Hi: I never understand why people can make a general statement like: "Mausers aren't inherently the most accurate". And no valid reason given? Why aren't they? Is there something generations of custom Mauser shooters have missed all during the years Mausers were the basis of very many fine, accurate custom rifles that shot just fine? If the person wants to make such a statement...he should expressly say why & give reasons...otherwise, it doesn't pass. I had a custom Mauser in .25-06 (Sporter weight, nothing fancy)...that shot a 5 shot 0.93" group at 300 years at the range...with several benchrest shooters as witnesses. Well, I'll take less than 1" at 300 yards anyday from a sporter. Mausers not inherently accurate..? You've got a basic bolt action with two locking lugs, barrel & stock. Someone tell me why they aren't accurate or other designs superior. I just don't & won't buy such flat statements...smacks of real ignorance. Make a flat statement, offer reason(s) why. Otherwise, don't bother. Tom | |||
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I see a few trends in my accuracy quest: 1) There are dozens if not hundreds of variables. 2) Life is too short to test one variable at time on all the variables. 3) Some of those variables can take too much time and money. This has some implications: 1) Some accuracy folk lore in the gun culture will need to be taken on faith. 2) We each must choose [with science, guessing, and coin flipping] which variables we pay for or include in our rituals. The hierarchy of accuracy needs: 1) Benchrest 0.2 moa 2) Varmint 1.0 moa 3) Deer hunting 6.0 moa I can walk into a Sporting Goods store, buy a rifle and factory ammo, go to the range and shoot 6moa. The trick for me was getting from 6moa to 1moa. The problem was not discovering which new thing to pay for or work into my rituals, it was knowing which ones were benchrest only, and so a waste of time for me. Some things not worth the time and money in attaining 1moa: 1) Neck turning 2) flash hole deburring 3) weighing the brass and sorting 4) 20" 5 pound barrels 5) 6mmPPC 6) Gluing the action to the stock 7) Micrometer seating adjustment 8) Target bullets 9) weighing each charge 10) an arbor press 11) Wilson dies 12) strain gauges to measure pressure 13) Chonographs [but they are good for bragging] Some things worth the money and effort to get 1moa: 1) Concentric ammo 2) Concentric chambers 3) Good bullets 4) 40X scope 5) windless days 6) bullet seated long 7) free floated barrel 8) hair trigger 9) Clean barrel 10) stress relieved and factory hand lapped barrel 11) No AKs, SKSs, or FALS, but ARs and M14s ok, and bolt guns are even better. 11) Glass the action to the stock and the scope mounts to the receiver for a low compliance and low stress connection. 12) Shooting technique with consistent trigger pull and reaction to recoil As to how you load concentric ammo, someone should start a forum called "Accurate Reloading". | |||
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A little observation: I noticed that you didn't shoot the 5 shot, .93 group with a stock Mauser. I assume that you, or, a friend carefully worked up and hand assembled the load that you used to produce the above results, and, in order to produce such a group, you are probably an above average shooter. Soooo, I would be willing to bet that you, your ammo and the "Custom" Mauser are properly tuned? I see nothing inherent about that.  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Thank you, Gentlemen- A little civil discourse. Finally. As I mentioned in another thread, I work for a target rifle builder. He builds rifles based on Barnard actions, and a true accuracy receiver is a different animal from a sporting firearm. Rigidity seems to be the prime issue: Many of these actions don't have a hole in the bottom--no magazine feed--and some don't even have ejectors. They're very, very good at what they're designed to do, but not something I'm interested in. tnekkcc, I really appreciate your post. Nice analysis, and a generous statement of your values. I'm willing to take a few of these "rituals"--well put, tnekkc--a little farther than you, but your experience is valuable, I think, to forum members as a whole. On the reloading issue, there have been a few informative threads recently on the Reloading forum. I've followed with interest the comparison between the Lee collet die and the Redding bushing dies. While the majority preference seems, for various reasons, to favor the Lee, I'm not convinced that, as one poster put it, the Redding bushing dies are "junk". The benchrest folks who use these Redding dies are pretty empirical in their evaluation of products, so I suspect there may be something to be gained from the bushings. Also, I've recently purchased a few Forster Ultra Seater--this is the micrometer model--dies. They're about half the price of the equivalent Redding, and also have the sleeve to align the case as the bullet is being seated. I figure they'll make experimentation with seating depth more accurate, and faster. Malm, add my name to the long list of those who are glad you're still around. Even though--apparently--you are an incorrigible contrarian. LOL. flaco | |||
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Yes, the 0.93" 300 yard group was from a custom rifle with select handload that I worked up, true. But the premise I object to is that Mausers are inherently not accurate...it was a factory Mauser action... Mausers have been faulted due to their bolt having a looseness...this was said to be a design target so when used in military use, is would be less likely to jam up or have problems...however, it dosen't matter much as the lock up of the lugs, bolt face square that is of importance. I shot against a friend who has a fine Mannlicher Rifle of top quality..his Mannlicher bolt would close up by holding the rifle vertical, the bolt was finely fitted with probably hand polishing...certainly a lot smoother than my Mauser action..like a Swiss watch. But my Mauser still outshot his super precise Mannlicher...its the lugs, lock up, and bolt face that are critical to accuracy...not how smooth the bolt throw it. So there! Best Regards, Tom | |||
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Among other things, but, with regards to these three items, you are correct.  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Well built Mauser 98's are acurate although not bench rifles and never will be. My 02 worth: Follow the fundamnetals of good rifle building practise True the bolt face and lap the locking lugs. This is a front locker so after lapping check that the third rear lug is still out of contact. Put the action in lathe and pick and slightly recut the barrel thread to ensure it is tru to the bolt race and face the front of the action to ensure it is square. Use a top quality barrel blank, not a prethreaded and chambered barrel. Cut the thread to suit the action thread whch is now slightly over size and cut your own chamber as if you were building a bench rifle but take into account field feeding requirements. Throat for the load you intend to use. Buzz words: Parallel, perpendicular, flat, straight, concentric, square, true, etc. Use a bridge mount as this in theory helps to stiffen the action. Glass bed action and first 1" of barrel, when bedding ensure barrel is free floating and leave clearance on sides, bottom and more on front of recoil lug. Leave some clearance behind tang so under recoil the action doesnt come under stress. Drill through stock where action screws go and use machined metal tubes so when clamped up you have some consistency of clamping pressure. I think some guys call this pillar bedding but I was doing this 30 years ago as an apprentice machinist to Mausers. Ensure no parts of trigger or safety etc are touching wood anywhere inside stock. The usual good trigger and scope. | |||
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He did it in Iowa too [with a 6.7" group at 1000 yards], beating the Panda, Bat, Rem, 40X, Nesika, and Stolle actions: http://www.iowa1000ydbenchrest.com/Match%205.htm | |||
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tnnekcc, I guess that I didn't read it that way. I guess he did ok, but several people finished above him. He did OK for a Mauser. What does lapping the lugs do for you? When you cock the rifle, the cocking piece pushes the back of the bolt up and the upper lug is no longer in contact with the lug abuttments. Butch | |||
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Lapping the lugs does two things I can see: 1) Makes contract between the bolt and receiver over a large enough area so that the steel does not yield in compression and increase headspace. 2) Provides a flat contact between the bolt and receiver so the bolt does not rock, rattle, or flex in the bolt bore when it gets the bolt thrust. | |||
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Flaco, I'm not a riflesmith and can't speak for rifle tuning in particular but when I call Sinclair for advice and dies for an M70 .300Wby I had built for "long range hunting accuracy", the guy on the other end of the phone told me to get a Redding bushing sizer and the Forester Ultra-Seater and go to town. That was great advice. He didn't push super special benchrest items on me and that rifle shot pretty much everything into an inch or less. The $300 Krieger blank might have had something to do with it but I'm sold on that combo of reloading dies. It's worked for a .338Win Mag with a PacNor and a friend's Remington factory .270 also. | |||
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I think I am gonna quit tuning this one...  This rifle usually shoots about 6/10. Then I fould the load...damn if it wasn't M118 military ammp form Lake City I think I will not monkey with it anymore Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Flaco, going to the range every week is easier said than done.I find that the most usefull reloading tool is trial and error.There are things that produce good groups in some rifles but do not work on others.What I found to be a strong foundation for accuracy is a simple old fashion hammer-forged barrel with a proper chambering.I believe the super accurate gunsmith and match barrel story is just a way of selling something inferior.If someone is not a quick learner and does not have enough shooting experience but instead lots of money to spend,he falls victim | |||
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Mauser action based rifles have been a way of life for me since the late 1940's. I have a half dozen rifles now on 98 actions, and all shoot with enough accuracy for hunting. They all have good barrels, are glass bedded, and with good triggers. I pay attention to most of the things that Tnekkcc mentions above, like case prep, good bullets, straight line seating with Wilson dies, or custom made dies similar. I use a 36X scope for load development, then switch to a hunting scope when I find the best load. I seat bullets at .010 off the lands which seems to work for me. I'm out of big boomers now, and all my retained rifles are 7mm and below. Every one of my Mauser 98 based rifles will shoot 3/8", 3 shot groups at 100 yards with the best load, except for my 284 Win and 7mm Mag, which shoot 7/16" at that distance. But, I spend a lot of time working the small details like Tnekkcc mentions to get that accuracy. Two of the 98 action rifles are a 22-250 and a 22BR. The 22-250 shot a 1/4", 3 shot group at 100 yards. The 22 BR shot 3/8" at 100. I can't shoot any better than that. The 22-250 rifle has a Canjar single set trigger on it, which I must say, sure helped get that group. I can never knock 98 action based rifles as not being accurate. I personally like Mauser 98 actions and will be hanging on to the ones I own. Don | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tnekkcc: Some things worth the money and effort to get 1moa: 4) 40X scope 5) windless days 8) hair trigger [QUOTE] The way I read your post, you were bashing "benchrest" techniques and procedures...yet you say a 40x scope is worth it to attain 1.0 MOA varminting? That, on top of waiting for a windless day and "hair triggers" kind of contradicts your #12 - learning how to shoot, in my book. | |||
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