There has been considerable discussion on the management of high pressure gases through a rifle's action if a primer is ruptured or blown. To my knowledge, these discussions have all centered around bolt actions, with the best system being employed by the Mauser M98.

Does anyone know how these gases are managed in the L1A1 or G3 battle rifles? How does the system used with these autoloaders compare to the vaunted M98 Mauser or even the modern bolt actions by Winchester and Ruger?

Finally, are the AR15, M1A, or AK systems better than the L1A1 and G3 for managing escaped gases?

Thanks,
Axel

Honestly? Who gives a shit?

I've never heard of anyone having a factory loaded or properly reloaded cartridge blowing up any way. I'm sure some have, but they are probably overloaded or have been reloaded far more times than what is prudent.

This question des not even enter into the realm of consideration when thinking about what rifle I will buy.

If this "problem" worries you so much, shoot with a face shield on.

Well, I've had a ruptured primer in my L1A1 (select fire Australian issue), and aside from the weird feel of the recoil, I didn't notice much of anything else. I stopped shooting and checked the cases on the ground, and didn't shoot the rifle again until I got it home and tore it down for inspection. Everything looked OK, so I tried it with some commercial ammo, and everything performed fine. I've run the same ammo (surplus, I don't remember where from) through an M14, and had no problems, so I think maybe it was just a bad cartridge. I think if it happened in a gun with the operating rod design, I would basically do what I did, stop and inspect. I don't own a G3, so I don't really know what would happen, and I've never had it happen in an AR15 or M16, so ditto on that. FWIW - Dan

Orion, honestly have you ever experienced a blown primer? I have and with SURPLUS ammo too. See, surplus ammo is usually old and PRONE TO OVER PRESSURES! So it is a BIG deal if you value your EYES and FACE!!! You must be like those "gentlemen" I see at the playing Rambo with their SKS and MAK90 "assault rifles". Give me a break, please.

Dan, thanks for your insight. I admit that the entire question was one of curiousity more than anything.

Axel

Orion1, or should I call you 10 point, aka, USA1, so what you are saying is you are an ignorant arse! You have no clue how these weapons manage gases and lash out at someone interested in learning. This statement, almost certainly, applies to the operating system as well. Since you are such a proficient AR15 shooter, how does the AR system manage gas, both from a ruptered/blown primer and via the operating system?

Name a range you would like to meet at and I will let you know if it is within acceptable travel range. If I meet you with your AR then you must meet me with my choice of rifles. You know tic for tac. Of course you realize that markmanship is only a small part of the skill of a hunter! Can you stalk, or do you need your targets set-up for you at prescribed ranges?

Axel

Ok kids, calm down.

Axel, the rifles are completely different. I have sold a G3 but never owned one, I think they are hideously ugly.

The L1A1 and FAL are same same except for cosmetic diffs. These are gas operated, self loading rifles.
As for old ammo being high pressure I beg to differ. Take new quality ammo and old ammo and you will see a reduction in velocity since the powder will degrade over time. The degradation products of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin compounds plus their inhibitors over time are not higher energy products.

For more information please go to www.fnfal.com into the discussion forums.

Axel: I can see how gas handling in a bolt gun is very important, because the bolt is exposed and has a bolt body and raceway that permit gas flow back to the shooters face. Of the semi-autos mentioned (I've had all but the AK) all have some sort of enclosure around the bolt/carrier, which is much less direct route than a bolt gun. I had a series of pierced primers in one of my semis, a CAR-15 I think. Slightly related, a friend had an excessive headspace issue with an M-14 (Armscorp), but we didn't notice until the gun kicked out a separated head. I both cases we never suffered any physical effects of such problems. Maybe being early-twenties foolish helped.

Now about those ass-kickin's: Where can I get me one?

[ 05-05-2003, 23:47: Message edited by: MBiggs ]

Gentlemen I have shot the rifles in question a fair amount and have this to offer as a non-engineer, just a "shooter". In a catastrophic high pressure I would worry about the sheet metal top cover of the FN-Fal.
The H&K on the other hand is another breed of cat. The H&K is never a really totally locked breech. How this would figure into a case failure I do not know, however the reciever of the H&K is steel with no openings toward the shooters face. The stock attaches with an overlap that faces away from the shooters face. Also the reciever of the H&K has more internal volume, which might allow the pressure to be contained with out damage, except maybe the magazine being forced out the bottom. Because of this I think the H&K would be one of the safest rifles to shoot if you have a case failure, no scientific evidence just a feeling.
However I will say it is not worth the chance of injury or gun damage by shooting cheap ammo just to save a few bucks. There is plenty of high quality surplus ammo at fair prices. The risk need not be taken.
Some people worry about reloading cases after they have been fired in the fluted chambers of the H&K. I did a test one time with "military" and "civilian" cases. After 10 [ten] reloads each with no problems I quit worrying about it.

NE 450 No2, thank you VERY much for the statements. I was concerned with the FAL's stamped steel dust cover as I can see daylight through the rear abutment on almost all of them.

Ksduckhunter, I apologize to USA1, Kansas is a bit far for me to travel just to show you up in shooting skills! I live in Michigan. Perhaps we can meet somewhere inbetween? I suggest central Indiana or Illionis, or possibly eastern Iowa. I am sure we can find a suitable spot in any of these states.

I suggest that after we conclude with the BB gun shooting, oops I meant AR, we can shoot the same events with REAL rifles. Say something .416 Rigby or bigger! I am thinking rifle weight of 9 to 12 pounds muzzle energy 5500+ lb ft.

Axel

There is an on line video of a FAL being blown up:
http://www.dsarms.com/pressure_test.cfm

I have wasted too much of my life trying to get FALs to be accurate.
They seem to be good rifles for shooting holes in everything but paper.