Is there anybody who know's of someone who would laminate a wood riflestock blank. I am aware of West custom rifles, and Richards custom Rifles. Im just trying to see if these are my only two choices.

Thanks

Serengeti Stockworks

Kind of on topic; What epoxy or glue do they use?

The folks at Serengeti will probably be happy to tell you 406 756 22399

quote:

The folks at Serengeti will probably be happy to tell you 406 756 22399

Thanks Duane, a word from you is damn sure good enough for me!! I gave Serengeti a call. They told me to just send them my blank , and they would do the rest.

I have seen pictures of some laminates that had more than one variety of wood in them. For example : Three layers of wood, the outsides being maple, and the inside being walnut. What is your personnal opinion on this. Would you like this "look"?

Thanks

Richard Franklin has made a great reputation for laminating fine wood target stocks.

http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/

He's now farmed out the stock business, but could give you advice in this area.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
Kind of on topic; What epoxy or glue do they use?

.366torque

I had a guy tell me once that Gorilla glue is used by some to laminate wood stock blanks. He also told me that this type of glue is the same that West custom rifles uses. West custom rifles bought out Richards custom rifles.

I think they use titebond. I asked them once when I visited but I'm not sure I recall correctly.

maxbear & dempsey, thank you!

I have some Gorilla glue, and a friend has a press that'll go 25 ton. I'm going to try a laminate stock.

.366torque

Sounds like fun. I hope that guy was right about the gorilla glue.

I had West custom build me a laminated blank, and then sent it to my stockmaker for duplicating. Thats how I came to know about Gorilla glue.

Another thing, Even though Serengetti gunstocks have a patented process. They talk about reversing the center board. Anyway maybe that'll help you some more.

Here's the link.

http://www.serengetistockworks.com/

Look around the top or their home page for about stockworks. Click that.

Then at the top of the next page look for lamination process. Click that .

Maybe that will help.

On my benchrest stocks I used an epoxy glue from West Systems. I did laminate carbon fiber cloth between laminations. I much prefer vacuum bagging over a press. I believe you can bruise the wood.
Butch

I wish I could recall the setup Acrabond, now Serengeti, had when I was there. I seem to recall there wasn't a whole lot of pressure. It's not a laminate like those of many, many thin layers pressed hard to saturate the lams with epoxy or whatever. It's just gluing them together.

Gorilla Glue is designed to expand and fill voids when it cures (like for furniture tennons or dowels). It cures into a hard foam-looking product. I think it would work but a clear epoxy would probably work better.

I'm inclined to agree with Tiggertate, Gorilla Glue would be a poor choice for this application as it's really not a good waterproof glue. One of the better epoxies would be a far better choice.

quote:

Originally posted by brianbo:
I'm inclined to agree with Tiggertate, Gorilla Glue would be a poor choice for this application as it's really not a good waterproof glue. One of the better epoxies would be a far better choice.

I've used Gorilla Glue in a variety of exterior applications and have found it to be very water proof. If fact, the manufacturer states that it's 100% waterproof. Having never laminated a gunstock, I can't comment on how well it would in that application. I have, however, used it on a couple of stock repairs and it worked very well.

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
I have seen pictures of some laminates that had more than one variety of wood in them. For example : Three layers of wood, the outsides being maple, and the inside being walnut. What is your personnal opinion on this. Would you like this "look"?

Let's just say that's not my preference.

I commissioned Serengeti to laminate this blank...




I sent two blanks and the result is a four-part lamination that will look for all practical purposes like a solid blank. This is destined for Harpreet Brar, PH in Tanzania for a 460 Wby. I'll be using a Krieger barrel and GMA action...open sighted...Harpreet doesn't like plastic any more than I do. This will have all the supposed stability of plastic with the feel and warmth of wood.

Has anyone used the African Obeche laminate offered by scopeusout.com?
If so, what is your opinion on it.
Thanks

James

I have done three home laminated stocks, all for competition rifles. Two are in cherry, one hard maple. I used Acraglas on two, Devcon 60 minute epoxy on one. The oldest is over fifteen years old now and still holding up fine.All were done from nominal one inch stock, and clamped up with "C" clamps. It's a cheap way into a prone or silhouette stock. They actually look pretty nice too.

So, how does a guy prep the laminate pieces. I presume you would bandsaw to the correct width and then run the cut pieces through a sander on both sides. Would you want a relatively smooth sanded surface or rough? Anyone care to suggest a grit number??

Thanks,


Jordan

I left the glue surfaces as planed from the lumberyard. Just made sure they were clean and spread the epoxy on, then clamped them up. I glued them in the board form, but if I ever do another one I am going to try rough cutting out the material I don't need, as in the magazine well, first.

quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:
So, how does a guy prep the laminate pieces. I presume you would bandsaw to the correct width and then run the cut pieces through a sander on both sides. Would you want a relatively smooth sanded surface or rough? Anyone care to suggest a grit number??

Thanks,


Jordan

I would find a friend with a power planer if possible. Like always, the less glue the stronger the joint. If you don't have a buddy with one, look for a wood-working club or community college in your area; they will do it for fun or for cheap.

Additional tips on adhesives for wood working .

Any type 1 which is exterior grade glue .
Resorcinol adhesive is first choice on any wood lamination project , second would be epoxy .

one need not use excessive pressure when clamping . Protect your wood with scraps of soft wood when clamping . They crush way before hard wood will . ( So you know how much pressure is enough ). Major clamping can be accomplished with vacuuming 15 lb. per square inch pressure . Additional benefit removes air voids .

Important is to score " Abrade " surfaces to be mated . Planers can some time leave burnished surfaces so score cross grain with sand paper . This provides " Bite " for the wood .

Last but one of the most important tips apply an even semi thin layer of adhesive to each side to be joined . Minimize squeeze out mess and excess air voids .

For those of you unfamiliar with " Resorcinol "
it's a product used in glue lam beam construction . It also worked extremely well in WW 2 for mine sweeper construction . It is a type 1 grade A adhesive . Exceeds all type 1&2 mil - specs also . A dark purple color when mixed almost black in color . It's a little easier to sand and machine than epoxies . Remember so is the wood in which you're laminating . Do your own laminating and learn to vary wood species according to what you like .

Shoot straight know your target . ...

To add a couple of other notes .

Laminating can be of what ever width or thickness one wants to make . Most laminated stocks are 1/8 "- 3/32 in thickness . I have made them as thick as 1 " for a couple of stock makers per request . Remember to alternate ring growth pattern . One ring up one down . I always start with the out side pieces ring grain in , then alternate the stack . It minimizes warp !.

For sanding cross grain for adhesive bite usually 120 or 100 is fine . The idea is to simply rough the planed surface to allow adhesive soaking or gripping surfaces . It's a common practice when laminating . It also helps some what with skating . Skating is when slick surfaces slide out of alignment while being clamped .

Some one asked about sanding grit . For finished stock ?. Normally 220 is just fine some people go finer . Others 150 - 400 grit. Depends on the wood . Walnut wouldn't know the difference . hard maple on the other hand would .

It really depends on the finish applied ( Oil or lacquer , urethane ) . Good luck .

Shoot straight know your target . ...

Dr.K, hey thanks!! That was incredibly informative!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
I have seen pictures of some laminates that had more than one variety of wood in them. For example : Three layers of wood, the outsides being maple, and the inside being walnut. What is your personnal opinion on this. Would you like this "look"?

Let's just say that's not my preference.

I commissioned Serengeti to laminate this blank...




I sent two blanks and the result is a four-part lamination that will look for all practical purposes like a solid blank. This is destined for Harpreet Brar, PH in Tanzania for a 460 Wby. I'll be using a Krieger barrel and GMA action...open sighted...Harpreet doesn't like plastic any more than I do. This will have all the supposed stability of plastic with the feel and warmth of wood.

Duane,

Would love to see that as a finished stock if you have time to take pictures and post them.

I shall not argue with an individuals preference .
That's entirely up to whom ever wishes to try his or her handy work .

I'm not a Smith nor a stock maker !. I just know structural materials mainly woods and plastics some metals . My expertise is in the composite world !. What will and what wouldn't work . I also have an extreme back ground in finishes ALL types from oils , paints to space age polymer extreme duty coatings .

My wood working experiences came from and still does come from my custom wood working business .
It's how i made a living and put my self through college for a Masters and PH.D. Structural engineering and Organic Chemistry ( polymer discipline ) For over 35 years ( I also imported exotic woods by the containers as a wholesaler ) some I used most I sold for various U S markets .

The easy part is planing roughing gluing clamping abrading . The hard part is Making the stock !, ...

If someone chooses to use glass bedding epoxy for laminating glue I'd suggest a degreaser for the wood first. Just brush a coat of acetone over the wood prior to applying the epoxy.

Lately I've had pieces of grip cap come off that were epoxyied on using acraglass and while some of the caps were ebony, others were walnut to walnut glue joints that failed.....I now degrease all glue joints where I use epoxy.

It never hurts to wipe mating surfaces with either acetone Lacquer thinner or denatured alcohol . Cross scuffing or sanding is also a real good Idea for adhesion . Covalent bonds ( Mechanical and chemical are the best one can hope to achieve .

Bedding compounds or casting resins epoxies are not really the best for adhering wood or much else for that matter . Acraglas is real good for what it was intended to be used for Pilar bedding , not for gluing woods together .

My personal experience and the Majority of wood working guilds national as well as international I believe would recommend ( " Resorcinol " ).

It's a powder & resin mixture. Mix together correctly by weight or volume and it doesn't fail . Besides it's what it was designed for , adhering wood . Try it and you'll never use anything but for gluing woods .

Laminated beams or timbers for construction must never fail !!!!!!.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Dr. K-

How would you rate the West Systems epoxies for use in making laminates, and actually finishing (or at least a couple of sealing coats) solid wood stocks?

I bought some West Systems 105 Resin and 207 Hardner for sealing, but have not used it on a stock yet.

Thanks!

Just a comment on the Gorilla Glue, from my personal experience. I used it to laminate posts for a pencil post bed. They are close to seven feet long, and very tapered. I alternated grain directions (flat sawn wood) and grain flow, and they have never warped.

That said, it expands the joints, leaves a dark visible glue line, and has a lot of little visible bubbles or voids.

I personally would not use it for a stock.

Todd

Marc ; I would not use epoxy west systems or any other to seal the stock !. There are epoxy sealers for that very purpose . How ever West systems is a VERY GOOD lamination adhesive !. One of the best as a matter of fact . Several Wood workers Pilots Marine people use it extensively .

I have and still use it once in awhile myself .

Shoot straight know your target . ...

I build laminated walnut stocks as a hobby and have built almost 50 now. I use 5/4 walnut, but have cut and glued some blanks also.

Some thoughts from my experience:

I tried one stock using Gorilla and will not do it again for the exact reasons stated above. I use Titebond and tested the joints and found after soaking in water for a day with nothing on the wood, the joint wouldn't let go.

If you are going to build a laminated stock using 2 to 6 laminates, each lam must be straightened. By that I mean just cutting them and reversing one and glueing the whole works back together again MAY not relieve all the stress. I know this for a fact as I have experienced it several times before I adopted another method of preparing the lams.

I take a lam and "glue" it to a 3 by 8 inch piece of pine that is straight. I "glue" it to the wide side with some strategically placed dollups (sp?) of body putty. The lam is not pressed down to straighten it, just left to sit on top of the thicker board so the top of it can be run through a planer. Once the body putty sets, I can run it through my planer and I have a straight face that has not been stressed by the planer. I break the lam loose from the backing board and now have a straight face that I use to plane the other side. This produces an incredibly straight lam that when placed against others of the same will produce a blank that is truely stress free.

I am not throwing stones at any others process. The question came up as to how to relieve stress and just pressing "bent" wood together in a huge press under thousands of pounds of pressure does not relieve stress. As you remove wood to form the stock the stress (can) come back to haunt you.

Hope this helps.

Jim

Fifty-five years ago the boys at Trinidad State were building laminated blanks for gunstocks. They were mostly alternate pieces of walnut and maple and the plys were about 1/4"-3/8" and usually had a 3/4" or so piece in the center. Mostly the wood was just run thru a planer and then laminated using 'Fossco' from M.L.Foss lumber co of Denver where most of the walnut/maple came from/ The plys were then clamped with 'C' clamps and allowed to dry. Tests were run by putting pieces so built on the roof of the building for a year or so and they were still in good shape. I don't remember ANY mention of stress relief or alternating direction of grain or any such esoteric theories being allpied to the production. They were quite common and very inexpensive at the time. I had the chance to see one I had built several years ago and it was still in perfect condition with no seperations. The glue was as I said Fossco but I think that was merely the house name for Elmers glue. I'm really glad we didn't have all the knowledge we have now because we would have not tried it and they would have not been successful. Sometimes ignorance is truley bliss.

My only experience was with a redwood and a walnut BR stocks. The wood on both were documented to be over 50 yrs. old. My Buddy that did the prep and laminating had over 30 yrs with Lockheed doing carbon fiber, kevler, fiberglass, wood, and so forth. I had a resaw blade in my band saw to start. The pieces were planed and then run through a precision German sander to allow us to hold .010 dimension. We ended up with .710x1.50 strips. We use .005 carbon fiber between laminates. I believe that we had 7 laminations high and 2 wide. We did use an epoxy glue that West Systems recommended. We vacuumed bagged them instead of clamping. I believe that we got more even clamping and less stress in the wood. We used redwood on one blank for weight reasons and it is a very stiff wood. The rifle with a 5lb 4oz barrel and a 45 power Leupold weighs 10.5 lbs. I believe a wood gun properly built absorbs vibrations better and shoots better. Sure looks better!
Butch

If one is building stock blanks as we all know can be from A - Z in thickness of lamination strips or chunks of wood for that matter .

Relieve or stress relief had better occur when drying !!. NOT on lay up or clamping . Alternating grain ring growth works the wood or materials against each other so as to " Aid " in keeping said blank straighter after wards .

Good on You " butchlambert " the added advantage of bagging ( Vacuuming ) is it removes air bubbles in addition to even pressure . It's not a great deal of pressure nor do I recommend clamping with excessive pressure either . Why would you need or want to ?.

using Kevlar and some of the exotic Armid fibers is not recommended least wise by me .

They're extremely difficult to sand cut and generally work with with out high tech equipment any way . They fuzz rather than shear Carbon is no problem expensive though . I would suggest Black S glass ( Structural fiberglass just in black color ).

Redwood is good for a lot of things , not sure about stocks of any kind !. To much acid for my liking and extremely soft to boot . Sika Spruce or long leaf ( Yellow Pine ) would have been a better choice in my opinion any way . Stronger stiffer as or lighter . Port Orford cedar ( Canoe small wood boats ) are made from it more to the color side for Redwood .

No matter it worked for you . Shoot straight know your target . ...