I am doing some load development for a friends Rem 700 Sendero in 338 WM.

Shoots great, making good progress here.

However, the chamber is tight - to tight. You really have to close hard on the cartridge, to hard.

Does the same thing on just the case as well, so it's not the bullets hitting the lands (and besides, I measure all of this already and they are set back sufficiently).

What could cause this? Short chambering? Headspace? I could probably trim the brass shorter (2.4895 still doesn't solve it), but wondering if that is just treating the symptoms and not fixing it properly.

Could something be wrong with the bolt face?

After chambering an empty case, dry firing, opening the bolt and pulling back a bit and then closing again (making sure the case never left the bolt face), the resistance isn't there when closing.

quote:

What could cause this?

My guess is a minimum spec chamber.

I have a model 70 in 243 very tight chamber. Factory ammo chambers just fine. Any reload I try is a problem.

First, find out where the resistance is. You say that empty sized cases are OK. So, start with a dummy round and a seated bullet. Take a blue or red Sharpie and color the shoulder, neck and bullet. Chamber the round, remove and inspect. Contact points will be obvious. The only thing that should change when you load a bullet into the case is the neck diameter.

As Bobster said, but also color the belt on the case. Doubtful if that is the area, but rule it out.

Empty sized cases and fired cases behave exactly the same - the have equal resistance to a loaded case.

I tried a sized 350 Rem Mag case to rule out business end of the chamber - same result. Difficult to close.

Once they are seated in the bolt face and you back it a hair and reengage the bolt, it's fine. It's first the first time the cartridge is fully seated into the bolt face.

Also, same result with Win and Rem cases.

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Originally posted by Bobster:
First, find out where the resistance is. You say that empty sized cases are OK. So, start with a dummy round and a seated bullet. Take a blue or red Sharpie and color the shoulder, neck and bullet. Chamber the round, remove and inspect. Contact points will be obvious. The only thing that should change when you load a bullet into the case is the neck diameter.

Empty cases are a problem as well. And when I use an empty 350 Rem Mag case, same result. So that rules out the business end of the case, correct?

Empty cases are fine? I read above? How does factory ammo fit? Are you crimping a bullet? If so, stop doing that.

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Originally posted by dpcd:
Empty cases are fine? I read above? How does factory ammo fit? Are you crimping a bullet? If so, stop doing that.

Plus 1

Over crimping can bulge the shoulder a bit.

Hip

Could the primer not be seated deep enough ??

Sorry, mistyped that. Empty cases are NOT ok.

Sized Cases are trimmed to 2.490"

Here is when the problem occurs:
1. Empty full sized cases; both Win and Rem (no primer)
2. Fired cases; both Win and Rem
3. Loaded ammo, with and without bullet crimp. All bullets seated well off the lands, .025" or more.
4. Full sized Rem 350 Mag Case

When the problem doesn't occur:
1. If the bolt is inserted into the action with the case already fully seated in the bolt face
2. Once in the chamber, dry fire, back bolt out a bit, recock, not issue.

The ejector button may be hanging up---try the case without the button installed in the bolt.

Hip

Sounds like you are 'fighting' the Remington 700 extractor. It's not a CRF, so the extractor has to snap over the rim of the cartridge case after the cartridge is seated in the chamber. If there's fouling in the extractor groove (at the bolt face) the extractor can't move back into the groove to allow it to snap over the rim.

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Originally posted by Hipshoot:
The ejector button may be hanging up---try the case without the button installed in the bolt.

Hip

not hanging, but stiff. Could be fouled as slivers states.

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Originally posted by slivers:
Sounds like you are 'fighting' the Remington 700 extractor. It's not a CRF, so the extractor has to snap over the rim of the cartridge case after the cartridge is seated in the chamber. If there's fouling in the extractor groove (at the bolt face) the extractor can't move back into the groove to allow it to snap over the rim.

Yep - this is the only place let to look. I notice brass slivers inside the bolt face - tell s me it's shearing off small pieces of brass with the forced necessary to close.

Just checked the bolt.

The ejector button is not hanging up and can be depressed a hair below the bolt face.

The extractor can be depressed, but not certain it's going full travel. I can snap a case directly into the bolt face head on (not at an angle) easily. In fact, easier than the bolt face on my Rem 700 in 280 AI.

Maybe install a new extractor?

Check the head of the rivet that holds the extractor onto the bolt nose. Look for brass shavings on the rivet. If that is it, use a diamond ball bit on a Dremel to ease the edge.

If you are able to easily seat a case into the bolt face by hand, then it will need examination by someone who can see and evaluate the whole system in operation.
Do not start replacing parts; troubleshoot first. And on the internet, often impossible.
Worse case; the chamber is not concentric with the bolt face and the case is binding and is hard to seat into the face. Which is why you can do it by hand, but not when closing the bolt.

I'm going to take to my local gunsmith this week.

I looked at it some more - the extractor is pinned from the factory and the bolt rim face was slightly distended when it was inserted. I fixed this, but nothing changed.

My theory is the chamber is too deep into the barrel - so extra effort is required to grab ahold of the rim. I assume a set of go/no go gauges will be able to catch this.

I will let you know what he finds.

A while back I had to troubleshoot a local shops rental rifles for his long rang classes. Rem 700 PSS that would close on a Go gauge but not on Federal Gold Medal 308. Not close on No Go. Turned out the center axis of the chamber was eccentric to the barrel tenon. About .025" off center from the factory. Gauges were smaller in rim diameter and didn't hang up, but ammo sure did. Just another place to look....

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Originally posted by kendog:
A while back I had to troubleshoot a local shops rental rifles for his long rang classes. Rem 700 PSS that would close on a Go gauge but not on Federal Gold Medal 308. Not close on No Go. Turned out the center axis of the chamber was eccentric to the barrel tenon. About .025" off center from the factory. Gauges were smaller in rim diameter and didn't hang up, but ammo sure did. Just another place to look....

Thanks - that's why DPCD suggested could be the issue as well. That would be the most expensive fix - new barrel!

Mayb Remington would warranty this - can always try. This a function issue and potentially a safety issue as well.

And the thing is, that rifle is dang accurate. Almost all of the test loads i shot (a few different bullets and weights) were under an inch with some around .5". And this was just a test run to get data and then dial in 2 loads for him. I'd think if the alignment is off it would be the barrel to the action/race ways versus the chamber out of alignment with the barrel?

It is not a headspace thing. Hard to say which component is or might be out of spec, without looking at it. But a CNC setup could have slipped. And if it is misalignment of bolt to barrel axis, then it should go back to Remington, for a new one. Which won't shoot this good.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It is not a headspace thing. Hard to say which component is or might be out of spec, without looking at it. But a CNC setup could have slipped. And if it is misalignment of bolt to barrel axis, then it should go back to Remington, for a new one. Which won't shoot this good.

Tom, Remington didn't use CNC machines when the pinned extractors were used.

My guess would be the rivet that holds the extractor and needs to be trimmed, not seating against the bolt face until he re-chambers the round.

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Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It is not a headspace thing. Hard to say which component is or might be out of spec, without looking at it. But a CNC setup could have slipped. And if it is misalignment of bolt to barrel axis, then it should go back to Remington, for a new one. Which won't shoot this good.

Tom, Remington didn't use CNC machines when the pinned extractors were used.

Unless something changed in the last few years, don't magnum bolts still use a riveted extractor?

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Originally posted by kendog:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It is not a headspace thing. Hard to say which component is or might be out of spec, without looking at it. But a CNC setup could have slipped. And if it is misalignment of bolt to barrel axis, then it should go back to Remington, for a new one. Which won't shoot this good.

Tom, Remington didn't use CNC machines when the pinned extractors were used.

Unless something changed in the last few years, don't magnum bolts still use a riveted extractor?

Yes, it is riveted/pinned in there.

I thought it was a new rifle. In any case, they used tape controlled machines, and even if they used a single station Bridgeport, the point is, that a setup could have not been rigid and caused a mis machined part.
I know nothing about when Remington extractors became the C clip type, I usually replace them with Sakos.

quote:

.... they used tape controlled machines, and even if they used a single station Bridgeport, the point is, that a setup could have not been rigid and caused a mis machined part.....

Tape machines was my first thought. Hell, we made 1903 Springfield's 100 years ago with single station broaching/shaping/scraping/drilling/milling/etc fixtures, sometimes individual operations for only one side of a feature, and they came out quite uniform. Something slipped.

Yes, and the factory workers at Springfield Armory made $12 per week, and the parts were carried from machine to machine by children who made $4 a week.
Where did we go wrong? No one will work now for any price.

I'm still amazed at the intricacy and finish quality of the MS 1903. I have one in 6.5x54 MS that was built in 1908. Can't imagine what it would cost today to make one.

A guy in Germany used to make them new from scratch CNC. I think he's out of business now. They weren't cheap.

The question has been asked but not answered and is the important one to identify if this is a reloading issue or a gun issue, does the tight chambering/bolt closing occur with factory ammunition. If so then you have a gun issue that needs gunsmithing to identify and resolve the issue.

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Originally posted by eagle27:
The question has been asked but not answered and is the important one to identify if this is a reloading issue or a gun issue, does the tight chambering/bolt closing occur with factory ammunition. If so then you have a gun issue that needs gunsmithing to identify and resolve the issue.

Yes, it occurs with factory ammo.

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Originally posted by Austin Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by slivers:
Sounds like you are 'fighting' the Remington 700 extractor. It's not a CRF, so the extractor has to snap over the rim of the cartridge case after the cartridge is seated in the chamber. If there's fouling in the extractor groove (at the bolt face) the extractor can't move back into the groove to allow it to snap over the rim.

Yep - this is the only place let to look. I notice brass slivers inside the bolt face - tell s me it's shearing off small pieces of brass with the forced necessary to close.

Okay so now we know it happens with factory ammo then it is not some problem with resizing brass, seating bullets etc., i.e. reloading). It must be a rifle issue and as you have noted there is slivers of brass inside the bolt face meaning either an extractor issue with something like fouling behind or fitment of the extractor or possibly the outer ring on the bolt nose is not opened quite to the correct dimension for the cartridge head and is thus shearing brass off the case rim as the bolt is closed over the cartridge head. Once the cartridge or case is seated with the extractor in the case extractor groove then of course the bolt will close normally as you are finding is the case.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by slivers:
Sounds like you are 'fighting' the Remington 700 extractor. It's not a CRF, so the extractor has to snap over the rim of the cartridge case after the cartridge is seated in the chamber. If there's fouling in the extractor groove (at the bolt face) the extractor can't move back into the groove to allow it to snap over the rim.

Yep - this is the only place let to look. I notice brass slivers inside the bolt face - tell s me it's shearing off small pieces of brass with the forced necessary to close.

Okay so now we know it happens with factory ammo then it is not some problem with resizing brass, seating bullets etc., i.e. reloading). It must be a rifle issue and as you have noted there is slivers of brass inside the bolt face meaning either an extractor issue with something like fouling behind or fitment of the extractor or possibly the outer ring on the bolt nose is not opened quite to the correct dimension for the cartridge head and is thus shearing brass off the case rim as the bolt is closed over the cartridge head. Once the cartridge or case is seated with the extractor in the case extractor groove then of course the bolt will close normally as you are finding is the case.

Hope it's a simple has changing the extractor and/or truing the boltface. Next step, local gunsmith that shoots and builds F class rifles.

Hopefully you get the problem resolved Austin Hunter but keep us informed as it is always good to know outcomes and only adds to the knowledge of all of us firearms users.

The Magnum boltface has often been problematic in Remingtons. There is barely enough material in the bolt counterbore to allow for the extractor to move freely. Consequently, it is common for the the extractor to shave brass and be difficult to close. Opposite the extractor hook, the rivet may also interfere. Simply replacing the extractor will probably not help since the extractor will still lack clearance. Clearance can be provided by either altering the extractor or increasing the depth of the undercut. In either case, the alteration is minimal since there is not a lot to work with. I use a Woodruff cutter to deepen the undercut, not more than about .010", behind the hook. This really is a tricky operation and one wants to be fairly certain before doing this. The alternative is to slightly thin the extractor. More than thinning, just beveling the edges may turn the trick.
The point that the chamber may be eccentric to the bolt counterbore is a good one, and this may very well be the case. When I toured the factory at Illion, the chambers were finished with a pull through reamer. I asked the guy at the machine how they did the eccentric ones and he gave me kind of a dirty look. Regards, Bill

As I said, I replace Rem extractors with sake ones; no issues noted. I know, when you blow them up, ......

I would agree with the eccentric chamber or possibly eccentric threads, or a possibility of a little of both. Add in a little error on the bolt face and all of a sudden you may have a extractor binding.

I have run into several combinations of parts over the years that result in the cartridge binding due to mismatch of parts, minor errors, and stacked tolerances.

On the other end of the spectrum a local customer brought in a brand new unfired Bergara rifle. It was brand new and unfired because it couldn't fire. The bolt handle was welded rotationally out of position so that the cocking piece would strike the cocking cam. I laughed when the guy brought it in because the bolt handle stuck up a good inch. How did it ever leave the factory?

It was made on a Monday after a long Spanish holiday like Ano Nuevo, and all the workers were still drunk.

Had a really nice Remington 1903-A3 come through a few years back with a similar issue. Random tightness and interference when closing the bolt on a round. The bolt had a little wow to it, as do almost all A3's, and the bolt face was ever so slightly undersized. 2 or 3 thou if my memory serves. If the planets all lined up it would bind on closing. Rotate the offending round a little and it would disappear. Opened it up a smidge (.005"?) and problem went away.

I suspect without reading this whole thread that the die does not resize enough by a tad, so DO NOT file the bottom of the expensive, die, rather file off the top of the seater that cost $8 give or take a coin a bit at a time until is sizes your case to a required fit which should be a very light snug fit. A tight minimum chamber is a plus to accuracy and long lasting brass..