Given hard use, and lots of it, which is the absolutely most dependable pump .22?

I'll throw my opinion out there based on owning quite a few of them. I'd really like to know what others think, and particularly what people that work on them see for repairs and problems.

My opinion is I'd put the Stevens visible loader at the absolute bottom of the list, and the Winchester 1890 or 62 at the top.

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Thanks,
dave

The 1890 I have belonged to my grand father and then my father. Ser # puts it 1921. It's been used, used and more used than any rifle I have and it's still going strong

I used a really beat Model 12 Remington a good bit. You know if a 13 year old can't break it it is going to last a while.

I have a remington 121 pump that my grandfather bought and taught both my father and myself to shoot on. Its almost 100 years old and works flawlessly.

I have to put in for my 1906 Winchester Expert.
It came from a shooting gallery, my dad gave it
to me 70 years ago. Put a new barrel on it in
1947. It is still my go to for a woodchuck in
the garden.

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
Given hard use, and lots of it, which is the absolutely most dependable pump .22?

I'll throw my opinion out there based on owning quite a few of them. I'd really like to know what others think, and particularly what people that work on them see for repairs and problems.

My opinion is I'd put the Stevens visible loader at the absolute bottom of the list, and the Winchester 1890 or 62 at the top.

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Thanks,
dave

Right on!

Miserable Loader (Ackley's term) is THE WORST!

My own Win 1890 was made in 1894 and, with a relined barrel and Scout scope, will still shoot MOA groups with the right ammo.

IMO the ultimate proof of their relative reliability is their almost universal use in shooting galleries across the country for almost 100 years. IMO the only 22RF repeater with an equal rep for reliability would be the little Marlin 39, in continuous production since 1891 (world record!) and still going strong. But it ain't a pump.

Repairs on the 1890/1906/62 platform? I've built and rebuilt several of them and have never encountered a problem that wasn't caused by neglect or Bubbaing of some sort. Parts don't seem to break but WILL wear over time and literally millions of rounds fired. Headspace can become a problem and I have actually seen one broken extractor but the rifle had already been Bubbaed to some degree so....
Regards, Joe

Got two-, don't remember the model #'s. Remingtons, one is thirties vintage, take down, the other 50's-60's(?), a smoothbore, for when things get snakey.

Both in the corner by the back door.

well my old remmy 12c is u8nbreakable, but my heart belongs to a win 61

I haven't owned many pump .22s other than Winchesters of the '90/06/62 series. None of them ever broke and I pretty much completely eliminated ground squirrels from a 40,000 acre central California cattle ranch and a northern California 35,000 acre ranch when I was a young sprout fresh out of the army. (I am NOT proud of that now that I am older and maybe wiser...rather, I am ashamed of it.)

To tell you a story why almost makes me cry...I had a friend on the Hollister, California police department named Buzz Souza who in 1961 began buying every 90/06/62 he could find for $5 or less...and had acumulated literally dozens of them, We all made fun of Buzz for having all those old .22s, 'cause they were available everywhere and nobody thought them anything too special. Some other officers even called him a "damn fool" for wasting money like that when the going monthly pay was $235. (My rent for a house, BTW, was $25 at the time....which may tell you something about the disappearance of the workman middle class. My rent was a little less than 1/9th of my monthly salary. How many employees earn more than 9 times the cost of their housing each month now, even if they DO still have a job?)

Anyway, old Buzz had the last laugh, and I suspect many of his even then old & much used Winchester pumps are still perking away three generations later.

I have the Remington 121 pump that my Dad bought in 41 just before going off to WWII. It's still running great. Never had so much as a hicup.

The thoughts posted so far more or less mirror my own. I took my two favorite user .22 pumps out today. One is a late model round barrel 1890 in 22 LR. Other is a 1930's model 12. Both have original sights, and a lyman tang sight. Both are ultimately dependable, and both are acurate enough to head shoot a rabbit out to 75 yards. Interestingly enough, with the sights as low as they go, both shoot about 2 inches high at 25 yards, where I would expect them to be right on.

My thoughts on comparing them is: The 1890 is more robust and much more dependable from a mechanical breakdown standpoint. The Model 12 is smoother, and not particular about how it is cycled. The 1890 has to be fully cycled smartly, or it won't eject the empty and will have to be cleared. It also needs oiled more to keep it smooth. The sights on the 1890 are finer, and easier to use. I prefer the hammer, but no real functional difference except that I prefer a hammer to a safety. 1890 holds 10, model 12 holds 12 to 14. 1890 gets dirty easier than the enclosed Model 12.

In mechanical dependability: I have worked on hundreds of model 12's thirty years ago when I had a real interest in them. Many gunsmiths hate them, but I don't see them as that difficult. The thing that is wrong 90 percent of the time is the cartridge stop is missing or worn or misfit. It's hard to get back in, and many people lose it and don't notice when they take it apart. Or think it broke off something else. Other repairs I have seen often are broken operating rod or connection, broken firing pin (hard to get the retaining pin out to replace), poor ejection, broken or missing springs, loose takedown screw, loose buttstock connection, split wrist on stock, and broken extractor or bolt where extractor goes in. Sometimes crud in extractor jams them.

Only consistent repair I have seen on 1890/06 pumps is broken or worn firing pin. Other thing sometimes is bent operating rod rubbing and making cycling hard. More Bubba problems than anything on 1890's.

Both are subject to being hit on the mag tube and locking up the inner tube. Or, getting loose and not locking tight so that the tube falls out and gets dirty and loses the shells.

Reason for this thread is I've been contemplating what a best survival/post doomsday type gun would be, and I've about arrived at a trapper length (barrel cut to mag tube length) 1890 or 1906 as being about ideal.

Light and easy to carry, reasonably accurate, very durable, low maintenance, smooth and fast operating, .22 lr for ability to carry a lot of ammo, but effective for nearly any game if used with discretion. TIME TESTED under similar conditions from 1890 to 1940. Can easily be single fed if needed.

For a user gun, I prefer the model 12 slightly. For a survival type gun, I think the 1890 has the edge.

dave

You'd be hard pressed to find a better pump than either the Rem. M12 or the Win. M61.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I have a remington 121 pump that my grandfather bought and taught both my father and myself to shoot on. Its almost 100 years old and works flawlessly.

The 121 was produced from 1936 to 1954 , so it'll be a while before it turns 100 ! Nice guns , with the longer forend .

oK, its 1st year production -- serial number 203x. So -- just a mere 76 years old.

Lyman tang aperture sights for the Remingtons show up at eBay with some regularity and they come dearly.

Also gunbroker, but like tin said...they are getting spendy.

I know you want a pump, but I have an old JC Higgins Model 29 semi-auto my dad originally owned. It holds 17 22 LR in the tube, but I usually run 23 shorts instead. Cycles them fine and with the long barrel, they are extremely quiet. Also feed 22 subsonic and the 60 grain 22 subsonic. Many raccoons have met their doom to this rifle.

Buddy of mine had a Rossi pump, we shot the shit outta of it. Never jammed and accuracy was great. Old gun when he got it 30+ yrs ago

From one who's repaired dozens if not hundreds of these things, the Winchester design, 1890, 1906, 62 ... Is SO SUPERIOR there is no comparison. I would not have a Remington 12, 121 or whatever for any reason other than having inherited it and even then I'd never try to shoot it.

Too strong a reply? Please forgive.

John,
is there a specific area of the Remington design that is suspect? No offense taken by me-- I enjoy learning from the folks who know.

The extractor comes to mind, but problems with that are related to worn chamber and bolt as well. Compare exploded drawings between the Rem 12 and Win 1906 and look at how many more tiny parts the Remington has. All those parts wear out and getting new parts to play nice with old ones is time consuming, expensive and often short-lived. On average I'd say it takes me at least twice as long to restore a Rem 12 compared to a pump Win.

By far, the best repeater .22 of that era I know of is the Marlin 39. In fact, all Marlin rifles when compared to their Winchester competitors are far, far superior. IMO the fascination with Winchester 1892 and 1894 rifles is due to three major things: The Winchester was cheaper to buy; Winchester had better marketing; and when Hollywood started making movies they couldn't afford Marlins so "Winchester won the West", at least according to Hollywood. Same case can be made between Colt and their SAA and Smith & Wesson Schofield, which carried on to all their respective double-action revolvers.

Hey, is this a high-jack in progress? Sorry.

Thanks John! I've always wanted a Marlin 39 but never could get myself to spend the money. With original marlins on the rise with the new ownership. I guess I'll bite the bullet and buy a nice one-- precrossbolt

Hi
This is my first post here. I got tangeled up in the 22rf pumps when I came home with a ratty 1904 savage with a broken extracter. Took a lote of stoning to get the thing to feed. Since then got a near new 121 Remington Slick as snot.Then a ranger 102 every bit as good as the remington. Latest is a 12Cremington that jams every time the hammer falls. Need some help with that one. I think the best and most reliable 22rf ever made is the 63 Winchester It will eat anything as long as it is HV. and very acurate. Only problem is keeping a full magazine. I suspect the 04 savage was a pretty good gun when new.
Thank you Joe
Tom