Folks

Since all of the discussion on Remington 700 triggers, I have bought and installed a Timney on my .30-06.

I have taken apart my factory trigger and made photographs. I would like to post them on this site so people can see the components and better understand the problem.

However, I have nowhere to host the pictures. Would one of you internet savy people host the pictures if I e-mail them to you? I have about 3 pictures. They could then be used as a reference when discussing the problems with the design.

John Harris

[ 04-08-2003, 23:54: Message edited by: Thunderball ]

OK

I will try this myself

Assembled trigger

Close Up

Individual pieces

Please discuss the problems with this trigger using the pictures as reference.

What do you think the problem is??I have been shooting rem's for 50 yrs and haven't had a problem yet.

Thank you very much Thunderball. Those other posts on remington triggers now make alot more sense to me.

I have had a remington slam fire on me a couple times but never loaded. I had to leave my rifles at home when I went to university but now that I better understand the problem I will be looking to have a new trigger installed soon.

Owensby,

Jack Belk is one of the most knowledgeable gun smiths/gun makers that posts on this site. He knows more about the poor and dangerous design of the Remington trigger than just about anyone. He may chime in here to explain.

It's not to hard to visualize the effect of any kind of dirt of debris on the connector, if the dirt or debris was between the connector and the trigger. Considering that the assembly is covered on both sides, it might be hard to tell that the geometry of the pieces had changed, and that the engagement of the pieces was in an unsafe condition. Add to that the concept that when this design fails, the end result is accidental discharge, not failure of the rifle to fire. At least that is what I see.

I'll add these to the collection. I drilled and tapped one of mine to make it a solid trigger, you'd do just as well to epoxy the connector to the trigger after grinding the angle back to 90 degrees like shown in the pic.

Maybe someone will post a link to the other recent trigger discussion and save some retyping of already mentioned info. This drawing here is Malm's.

This is absolutely great stuff. The pictures to illustrate the problem.

Just to tie it all together, here is a link to the latest thread where Jack Belk described the problem: AR Thread Containing Jack Belk's Explanation. I hope Jack will forgive the cross link, I did not want to copy his post . With the pictures at hand, the explanation is a ton easier to understand - at least for dummies like myself

- mike

[ 04-09-2003, 14:19: Message edited by: mho ]

mho---

I appreciate the link. My computer went tits up while I was looking for it.

After more that ten years of explaining this stuff, I'm happy for someone to re-read instead of re-ask.

........BUT, I'll still answer questions.

I assume that nearly all of the problems relate to the connector. The other "flaw" is the entire top being open for trash oil etc to filter down into the workings and get between the connector and the trigger.

I am thinking the problem is that the connector can get separated from the trigger. When connector is not touching the trigger and the top of the trigger moves to the rear, the connector can hang on the sear and therefore the gun will fire when the safety is off? See picture link below.

Can you explain the failure modes and what causese them? i.e. how are the pieces misaligned and how that causes accidental discharge?

1. What causes a slam fire or a firing when the bolt is closed?

2. What causes a discharge when the gun is taken off safe? How does pulling the trigger while the gun is on safe contribute to this dischage when the safety is taken off?

Disconnected connector

Thunderball---

PLEASE read the link. It's been explained, hash-out, discussed, argued over and re-explained for two and a half years on this site and Huntamerica ad nauseum.

Do a search and you'll find at least 30,000 words already written.

hmm, are you guys totally confident that the acraglass would hold? I understand why the need to grind the end of the connector square so that the sear doesnt hit the end of the connector on the way down, possibly fracturing the epoxy bond. But what about the impact force of the sear on the trigger when it falls, could that possibly break the bond over time? Forgive me guys, im a little ignorant when it comes to epoxy. Just seems like a fairly easy fix to the problem, and would have the same effect as installing a new solid trigger design, minus the expense of course.

Deleted by Thunderball

[ 04-10-2003, 00:17: Message edited by: Thunderball ]

Okay Jack,
Now that I see the problem with the Remington triggers, the question begs to be asked- Just what is the funcion of the disconnect piece?

Also, is the picture showing the disconnect connected permanently a good fix, or is there more to this problem than meets the eye?
TIA- Sheister

From what I can see, the sear never makes contact with the connector piece after the trigger is pulled, the main spring tension keeps it from slamming the connector.

The only causes I can see that can keep the sear from full engaugement of the connector in this case, and the solid trigger piece surface that engauges the sear in others is:

Crap gets between the connector and trigger piece.

And or, between the sear engaugement adjustment screw and the trigger piece which would reduce sear engaugement to a point it would not cock at all or fire as you were closing or opening the bolt, jaring the rifle because it slips off the trigger piece or connector.

Crap getting between the sear surfaces will do this on any trigger assembly as well, hence the huge amount of enguagement most come from the factory with.

To little trigger return spring tension that will not guarantee consistant return of the trigger or connector under the sear will do the same thing to you.

The epoxy is quite an easy fix and has a bond strength that won't be broke easily, I can't remember exactly what it is though.

Screwing the connector on is not real simple, but not real hard either, you do have to pay close attention to detail and center it perfectly when you drill the hole through the connectors existing hole for the overstop travel screw into the trigger piece, the connector is very hard and I doubt you'll drill it, so use the existing hole already in it. Tap the hole slowly with a tap so it doesn't swell the trigger piece like it did when I tapped the hole with the screw itself. I had to remove the swell when I was done to fit the trigger in the housing with no friction. If you don't center the screw from side to side it will effectively make the trigger piece wider too, so keep things lined up well and it works perfect. Modify the head of the screw holding the connector on is necessary so the overstop travel screw doesn't bind inside it as the trigger is returned or pulled. The head also needs to be shortened enough that the connector can move far enough away to disenguage from the sear. You can now shorten the overtravel stop screw or leave it stick out. Not hard to do any of this, you will see once you start exactly what needs to be done to fine tune the stop screw area and by how much, if you understand how it all works together and such to begin with, which ain't hard either.

Grinding the angle off and just epoxying it on is easier and less time consuming, but I like the screw in there too... it was worth the time and effort for me though, you might could care less about it though. Either way the trigger is fixed and becomes a solid one.

As JBelk pointed out before, someone forgot to tell the guy that designed the connector type trigger for the Remington that once the sear falls, the angle on the connector would only slow down lock time if anything, it don't speed it up in any way, shape or form. It was designed to kick out of the way faster than the trigger would, at least that is what they say, but it doesn't wash at all, and is counter produductive in more ways than one.

I've read Jack's explanation about the problem before and just took his word for it. Since then, I have avoided and finally got rid of the only Remington that I will own.

This is the first time I have seen the pictures and compared the explanation. What an needlessly dangerous design. All I can say is a great big THANK YOU to Jack Belk for steering me right.

sweet! I hope the used rifle market floods with all those unfixable remingtons! Then i can afford to buy more!

Epoxy used to glue the connector to the trigger lever was used by most of the folks that converted early Remington two lever triggers to three lever triggers. I would probably not modify a Rem trigger, myself. Either go Jewell, Shilen or one of the others or use them as designed. They work real well unless you let them get trashed up or make unwise modifications like cutting springs to reduce pressure.

In thunderballs pics. of the individual parts could someone please id the parts. (I know which one the trigger is) Thanks

The horizontal piece at the top is the "sear block", the cocking piece on the firing pin rests on the angled surface when cocked. The "C" shaped part is the "connector" that is sometimes glued or screwed to the trigger "lever" or trigger "body". The piece on the left is fixed between the side plates and has the two screws that control overtravel and trigger spring pressure. The block on the right has the screw that controls engagement.
I hope that is right and makes sense.

Whew'' just got around to reading JBelks explanation makes a lot of sense to me.I guess I have been very lucky all these years,don't understand why Rem won't fix the problem,seems like all they have to do is put a screw to attach the connector to the triger.

I looked at the pics, I read Jack's explanation, I see the problem, I understand it, thanks. But...

I know somewhere in the 30,000 words it's probably been answered but I can't find it.

What's the reason to have the connector at all? Why not make the trigger a single piece? Seems one less part would be cheaper. What was Mr. Walkers thinking behind this design?

Thanks, Rob

I beleive that the reason for the spring loaded connector is to prevent the trigger/sear from being caught right at the "point of no return". When the edge of the connector passes under the edge of the sear bar it cannot get hung up right on the edge. When the connector reaches the critical point, it can easily move away from the trigger (against the trigger sping) allowing the sear block to fall. This has been hailed by some engineers as a very clever design safety feature. Other problems seem to arise when the trigger system is modified or allowed to deteriorate or get filthy and grungy. A good ref. is Stuart Otteson's book, "The Bolt Action" or some of his articles in Rifle Magazine, mid 1970s.

Jay---

Your theory doesn't hold water. If it did there would be problems with Canjar, Timney, Winchester, Sako, Ruger, Weatherby, M-788, Tikka, and many others....All of those use override sears with a solid trigger.

Instead there's only a problem with the M-700 series.

If a trigger is adjusted with too little overtravel they can hang "point to point" whether it has the connector or not.

The patent documents say it's impossible or impractical to machine a ninety degree corner on a trigger part.....ignoring that Winchester had been doing it for 20 years and so single shot target rifles had been shot thousands of rounds without damage.

The patent is based, in part, on a lie. Whether it was done to save money, or to just be different isn't known.

It IS known to be defective in design.

Thanks Jack Belk, THunderball and of course, BIll Gates who made it possible to read Jack's text while viewing the pic's.


I too, just took Jack's word for it...Now I can see the problem myself. It's pretty clear even to me.

You'd think if Jewel etc had all these great trigger replacements, Remington might take a few minutes to examine one, and modify their own trigger.