I have a L61R standard face action and a Brown Precision Classic stock that are in need of a barrel. I am looking to build myself a Bear rifle.

The Bears in my area (Sask Canada) mostly range in the 200-400 pound mark, but on rare occasions some are lucky enough to take one in the 600 pound range.

My 338 Gaillard Wildcat will work (340 on steriods for those who don't know the cartridge), but the exit wound is a little less than desireable even with a good bullet like a Barnes X.

Since I have a spare action and stock kicking around, why not build another rifle.

I am really leaning towards a 338/06 because I have a ton of 338 bullets and I see in the load data charts I can get a 250gr around the 2200 FPS range which is roughly my goal.

9.3x62 & 35 Whelen could be a possibility also.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.

I have a 9.3X62 (250,286,320) and a .411 Hawk (300,350,400), both probably unnecessary for you 400 pounders, and a 338-06 is a great round, probably quite sufficient.

Personally, I like bigger, just in case you meet PAPA bear unexpectedly.

Wookie, all three of the calibers you mentioned should do great and with equal bullets you would have to shoot a lot of bears before you are likely to see any discernible advantage of one over the other.

.425 Westley Richards

When I used to live in Saskatchewan, most of the bears killed seemed to be "taken" over on the east side, about half way up the Manitoba border...and they were mostly all killed over bait from tree stands.

In those conditions, a .308 Winchester is entirely adequate. Certainly a .30-06 wpould be.

If you want to go bigger, just about anything more powerful may work excellently.

I think a 338/06 with 210 Nosler Partitions would be the Cats Ass for bears. I whacked a couple a few years ago in Ft. St. John with my 8/06 and 200 gr. partitions and they never knew what hit them. Medium bore non magnums are just not appreciated as much as they should be, except here! I just saw where you are committed to 250 gr. bullets, I think 2400 fps is easily attainable, my .318 WR with 250 Woodleighs is nothing but a 330/06 and that is the factory velocity which I achieved with R-15 and no pressure problems. In 8/06, I found H-380 worked very well with limited capacity/long bullet loads. It is a ball powder, but I still used a drop tube and I got 2740 fps with the 200 gr. and you could not physically get enough powder in the case to get any sign of pressure. Good Luck on your project!

My goal is to get a bullet in, and hopefully it does not come out. My friend is a big lever fan, his 444 goes in but does not come out most of the time. His 450 will go all the way through though. He is about 2300 FPS with a 230gr out the 444 & 2100 FPS with a 350gr out the 450. I'm thinking a 250 @ 2300 FPS should be similar to the 444? Not sure though.

Besides a guy needs a reason to build a new gun so he can clear it with the war department (wife)!! (LOL)!!!!

35 whelen get's my vote.Mine is a dream to shoot and it will kill what you hit with it,even coyotes wilt 180 gr pistol bullets.Good Luck

On bears I am a big fan of complete penetration as they bleed so little from most entry holes and having a large exit helps immensely when tracking is necessary. they also seem to die quicker with two holes.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
On bears I am a big fan of complete penetration as they bleed so little from most entry holes and having a large exit helps immensely when tracking is necessary. they also seem to die quicker with two holes.

I understand that and won't argue with it. Any other game I like big holes in and out. I like the high shoulder shot on a bear to drop them where they stand. Then if a follow up shot is required, they are not moving and that can be done with relative ease.

Most bears my friend has taken with his 444 have penetrated both front shoulders with bullet recovery just under the hide. Very seldom does the 444 pass all the way through. His 450 will though.

I am looking for a similar result in a bolt action.

Another vote for the 35 Whelen. 9.3x62 is also a great choice. I have both...

Wookie,
Have you considered the .358 Norma Mag? A 250gr bullet at about 2850....Although I think this will probably give you an exit wound
I think the 9.3 X 62 would be great!
h2o

I also like a medium high shoulder shot - actually it is more like a between the shoulder shot as from whatever angle the bear is facing I want the bullet to pass midway between the shoulders. It works every time.

338/'06 or 338 Federal......

Wookie, all of the calibers mentioned will exit most of the time. The sectional density of a thirty-something caliber 250 grain bullet is so much higher than a 250 grain .444 bullet (at the same speed) that the comparison isn't valid.

To do this in a bolt gun is going to require a big diameter bullet but light for the caliber. I can't think of a factory round 30 cal or bigger that won't exit with the exception of the 35 Remington. It's a classic bear cartriidge with 180 and 200 grain bullets made specifically for it's velocity. You can load it down easily to the point required to minimize exit wounds and still have excellent expansion and penetration.

Another possibility could be a wildcat .411 shooting good quality .41 pistol bullets, but not too fast. But then you get into light-loading the '06 or 308 case. And there is the 9.3 x 57 with lighter bullets, perhaps. The 286 grain bullets will punch through, even at the lower velocity of the 9.3 x 57.


Hmmm...35 Remington seems like the ticket even though she ain't the most glamorous gal in the building.

quote:

My 338 Gaillard Wildcat will work (340 on steriods for those who don't know the cartridge), but the exit wound is a little less than desireable even with a good bullet like a Barnes X.

Since I have a spare action and stock kicking around, why not build another rifle.

I am really leaning towards a 338/06 because I have a ton of 338 bullets and I see in the load data charts I can get a 250gr around the 2200 FPS range which is roughly my goal.

I'm confused, if you're not getting an exceptable exit wound out of the .338 cannon, why do you think you'd get one out of a .338/06??

I would think you would want to look at something .375 or larger based on your intitial post.

I think he meant the exit wounds were too destructive, Rusty.

I am going to agree with Buliwyf. The .425 Westley Richards with 400 grain bullets should give you the exit wound your looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by Wookie316:
I have a L61R standard face action and a Brown Precision Classic stock that are in need of a barrel. I am looking to build myself a Bear rifle.

The Bears in my area (Sask Canada) mostly range in the 200-400 pound mark, but on rare occasions some are lucky enough to take one in the 600 pound range.

My 338 Gaillard Wildcat will work (340 on steriods for those who don't know the cartridge), but the exit wound is a little less than desireable even with a good bullet like a Barnes X.

Since I have a spare action and stock kicking around, why not build another rifle.

I am really leaning towards a 338/06 because I have a ton of 338 bullets and I see in the load data charts I can get a 250gr around the 2200 FPS range which is roughly my goal.

9.3x62 & 35 Whelen could be a possibility also.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.

30/06, 338/06, 35 Whelen, 9,3x62 up to 375 Whelen!?

Think your answer is somewhere in those options! Pick the one that's best for you.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
-----------Another possibility could be a wildcat .411 shooting good quality .41 pistol bullets, but not too fast.----------

.411 Hawk (.411)

.400 Brown-Whelen

.400 Ackley Whelen


10.75 X 57 (.424)

10.75 X 68 (larger rim and base)

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
-----------Another possibility could be a wildcat .411 shooting good quality .41 pistol bullets, but not too fast.----------

10.75 X 57 (.424)

Now we're talking!

P.S. Unless I missed something, the goal is to avoid complete penetration and an exit hole, not achieve it.

Jeez, maybe I have misinterpreted his post, but I thought (and still think until he says differently), that his problem was already too big an exit wound, not too small.

At any rate, he probably needs to provide some more info. From the area he lives in, I would have to also guess that ALL the bears he is talking about are Blacks, not Grizzlies or Polar B's.

Also, from experience of years living there, I repeat they are most usually shot over bait from stands. Average shooting distance under those circumstances is probably 30-40 yards. Danger is absolutely minimal except to the bear. It would be useful to know if that is the way his hunts are usually done...?

For the kind of hunting most common in his area, I think the .35 Rem. is a good option and plenty powerful enough. I might even recommend an old .401 semi-auto Winchester (if gun and ammo were available). Another option might be a downloaded .338 Federal if a guy wanted some fun trying one of the newer cartridges in a new gun.

Why not a 35 whelen loaded with pistol bullets?
You should be able to find a bullet weight and contruction to achieve your goal. You may even have to drop down to 358 win or 35 rem cartridges to decrease your powder capacity to regulate penetration. Or drive a highly frangible bullet at the fastest speed possible so it completely comes apart after entry into the boiler room.

I persoanlly disagree with not wanting an exit hole, because I believe in the exact opposite.

But potatoe, potahtoe. Please let us know what you come up and actual field performance.

Not necessairly glamourous, but why not the old .375 H + H. Its killed a ton of bears. If you want a .338--- there the win mag, again killed a ton of bears.

Exit wound too big. 3200FPS is too much even with a 225 XXX bullet. Now I know I could drop my charge and get in the 2800 FPS range with a 250gr, but I figure HEY! I have a stock and an action kicking around why not build a new rifle.

Hunting Black Bears on a bait. 50 yard shooting for the most part, 100 yards on the long end. Average Bears are in the 200 pound range, exceptional Bears are in the 400-500 pound range.

The exit hole was almost 4 inches.

I have given the 338 Federal a looking over, but just can't bring myself to build a short cartridge on a long action.

1) 9.3X62
2) 35 Whelen

Wookie

Of the medium bores I think the 9,3 is very hard to beat.
This is baised on my use of a 9,3x74R double.

In a bolt rifle for Africa I would consider the 9,3x62 the best choice....

But since you already have a lot of 338 bullets, and we are talking about bear, then the 338/06 might be better for you.

It to is a great calibre.

As is the 35 Whelen, but "you got all them 338 bullets", so that is the best way for you.

You mentioned 2200 fps, and no exit. Black bears from stand. You mentioned that you want to use the Sako action. That's a good one.

Here's a suggestion that may be perfect for your criteria, and keeping it simple too. Barrel the darn thing in 8x57, get yourself some Remington or Winchester factory 170 gr loads, or something similar, sight your rifle in and go hunting. The factory loads mentioned are in the class of 30-30 or 35 Remington in power, only better, and fit your action. They are way loaded down compared to what the cartridge is capable of. Then when you want to go elk hunting or whatever, and you want to use full power loads, there's plenty of them too in factory loads. Personally, given the requirments you mentioned, that's what I would do.

Here's some links to factory ammo in 8x57 to show what I'm saying:

Federal 170 gr at 2360 fps
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=514659

Privi Partizan 196 gr at 2181 fps
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=274276

Remington 170 gr at 2360 fps
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=815438

Winchester 170 gr, fps not stated
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=451420

Norma 196 gr at 2526 fps (normal Euro load)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=846872


But, if you insist on 338/06 or 35 Whelen, or 9.3x62, you are going to probably have to handload. All will easily exit a black bear with anything close to normal loads, but they won't make an exit hole like that cannon you have been shooting.

Even if you load down there is still no guarantee the bullet wont exit, but it won't blow a big hole either. You have to hit them with enough speed to do a good job.

So, 338/06 I suggest trying the sierra 215 gr or perhaps even better the 200 gr bullet made by Hornady for the 338 Marlin. That bullet is designed to open at lower velocity - like the 2200 fps you want.

35 Whelen, again Hornady makes a 200 gr flex tip for lower velocity. Hornady also makes the interlock in 200 gr RN. Speer makes a 220 and 180 gr flat nose.

9.3x62, normally shoots bullets known for penetration. It will take some effort to get this one to not exit. Woodleigh makes a 250 gr RN that would be most likely to succeed, and still open up, leaving the muzzel at 2200 fps.

Anyway, either cartridge is more than enough for your requirments, and fit the action that you have. Take your choice, and choose a soft light-for-caliber bullet, and develope a handload at the fps you are looking for. Done deal.

KB

I have killed Bear with the 35 Whelen. Always used Speer 250 gr hot cores about 2400 - 2500 fps.

The first bear I killed was a 10 foot Brownie, first shot thru the neeck and body cavity then out the right rear leg, second shot thru both shoulders. Never recovered the bullets. The guide was packing a 300 Win Mag, with 220 gr silvertips, he also put one thru the shoulders as a followup in the thick stuff. We recovered parts of his bullet just under the skin on the far shoulder.

With the black bears, here in Washington, just a 35 cal hole all the way thru. So make sure to break bone.

I packed that 35 Whelen from 1977 to 1993, I only recovered one shed jacket from any animal in that time.

The nice thing about the Whelen is bullets from 95 grs to 300 grs.

James Wisner

OK, here's what I get so far:

1. You want a cartridge to fit your standard L61R, not a short case like 308.

2. You would prefer no exit at all but would settle for something that left a small exit wound.

3. You already own plenty of rifle for other situations and/or game.

So, I'd vote for either the 35 Whelen or 9.3 x 62. The 35 Rem isn't short like the 308 but it's shorter than the '06 by a good bit. And it would be hard to sell later. The 338-06 is a great rifle round but all the bullets are for high rifle velocities. And the 338 Federal is a short case again.

The 35 Whelen has the nod for bullet selection and versatility. You have everything from pistol bullets to romper-stomper premiums, plus an endless variety of commercial cast bullets which kill efficiently and leave smaller exit wounds. It is a do-all caliber, for sure.


The 9.3 (either x57 , x62 or x64) has a cool factor with a SAKO action but there just aren't enough bullet types for you to have the best chance of a load that meets your criteria.

The 400s like the 400 Whelen or 411 Hawk are as good as the 35 Whelen regarding commercial cast, pistol and premium bullet selection but again, prolly harder to sell if you change your mind.

tiggertate,
As I remember, the 35 Remington has an odd case head diameter, and isn't at all compatable with the Sako action he wants to use.

KB

Good catch, if that's the case (pardon the pun). And I and everyone else have omitted the 358 Winchester which also should qualify, other than case length.

I like them all, but I definately think the 8x57 is just right for this scenerio.

KB

I have some things to ponder I guess.

As you may be able to see, I am biased to the .411 (either Hawk or Brown-Whelen).
I have built 35 and 375 Whelens and enjoyed them.

The .411 lets me do everything they did and more out to about 250, and, gives me the insurance factor of 4000 ft/#'s if I need it.

A wide variety of bullets exits( so does .358) but there are plenty of .410 & .411;s to choose from -- from soft pistol jackets to hard jackets and bronze/brass/copper solids, as well as hard cast heat treated gas checked thumpers.

Expansion can be maximized or minimized by bullet and velocity choices.

Though I do agree about the re-sale bias to the .35 and .338-06.

Sometimes getting old is a real pain in the memory. I forgot entirely about the 8x57 until several of you guys mentioned it. And I have one too! One of my favorite rigs is a Steyr "Professional" in 8x57 with a standard 4x Leupold up top.

I think that chambering would be an excellent choice for his bear with either light jacketed or cast bullets, loaded down to about 1,800-2000 fps.

Nice thing about that choice is that it is likely not the greatest for southern Sask white-tails (though with 150 gr bullets loaded hot-ish it'd work just fine). And his .338 Super-Mag would be a little too warm for me. So, that's given him a great excuse for building yet another rifle next year for the Mowich...some laser-beam, whitetail-"dead"-icated, prairie rifle.