I am extending my garage with a new 24x28 “wing” to house most of my gunmaking machinery. I would truly love to hear any suggestions from my fellow AR members on what I should do or do different. I have though it through as best as I could but having never done it I figured I would be best off to get any advice I could from guys who have done it.
The situation is that I can only have an 8 foot ceiling (to keep the roof line with the garage/house and the area will be heated. I plan to put only four mills, four lathes and two grinders and my small VMC in this area as well as my stocking bench and a few more small benches. Sanders, grinders, band saw and other such fun stuff will be done in the old garage as well as heat treating and welding.
The concrete will be poured very soon, most certainly if weather holds, next week, and I plan to get most of it done before spring thaw. I like the idea of an epoxy floor but am thinking it’s impractical due to having heavy tools being moved around at times and I have already skipped the idea of radiant floor heating as an unnecessary luxury. I’m going with 2x6 walls and trussed metal roof and will have a 100 amp sub panel. Code requires one GFI so that will take care of the most important tool, the coffee pot. Have bought 16, 4 foot, two bulb florescent fixtures and will be using them for general lighting and most of my machines have their own light as well. Have four good sized windows and will probably get a window unit air conditioner. Will set it up with a sound system and flat screen TV and since it’s too expensive to run plumbing will just screw a funnel to the wall in a corner. Will mount some wall fans and a couple ceiling fans as well and I have made some 2x “cabinets” that will fit behind/between the mills for tooling organization. I also have some ceiling storage “things” for pattern stocks, consumables and stock blanks.
I know there is a ton of things I can do to make life easier that I don’t know right now, anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Earl.

Sooner or later you will regret not plumbing it. I'd run a water supply at the very least. That way you can have a wet sink. Get an "instant" water heater while you're at. If it's too expensive to hook to the main drain, it should easy enough to come up with a gray water drain system. I do this stuff for a living, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard the phrase "We should have done it while we were at it."

I agree with Craigster on the plumbing. I would at least stub the plumbing before the concrete is oured to allow you a connection later if not sooner. I also suggest you use metal shelving on rollers. I have built a lot of shelves in my life then found they were in the wrong place.

I wish at least once a day my shop had a sink and a toilet. The mad dash to the house gets old. Plumb it and you won't be disapointed.

Two things for sure, I would plumb it for compressed air outlets and each spot there is a machine and build yourself a sturdy barrel vise and base at least three feet high and accessable from all sides.

You could just get some ruff plumping in the foundation before you place the concrete. It wouldnt cost much. Water and toilet, shower, etc pipeing so its there I think is good advice. You dont have to hook it up. But the ruff plumping will be in the foundation if in a later date you decided you wanted to connect.

Well---I built mine 30x40 with no plumbing so here are my recomendations. Put in plumbing (or at least the ability to put it in later)!!!! And---build it 24x56-- your plan is too small by at least half! It will never be too big! Good luck with your project and have fun!

The plumbing situation is I would need to run a waste drain 60 ft uphill, through my finished basement. I cut down a huge pine at the corner of the new site and am planning to fill it with gravel and use it as a drain (illegal in my area). Other than that I will have a toilet in the house twenty yards away (and a flight of steps). I like the idea of a sink and might be able to put one in after the building inspector finishes.
I like the idea of the steel shelves but most of my tooling weighs tons (literally) and the box store shelving is too flimsy. Will keep a look out for some industrial shelving.

I do plan to run air lines (dry) and keep them on hose reels and a connection at my mills. My barrel vise will stay in the old shop.
And yes, it's way too small! I can not go over 28 ft long or it wont pass inspection (set back). My first plans were 30x50, two levels.

11 machines as well as workbenches? Looks like it could get crowded. Plumbing is good but I think I'd ditch the TV, it'll get in the way of work and might be a distraction when you're working. 3 phase power?

In addition to plumbing, I'd strongly suggest you at least run Pex tubing in your poured floor so even though you do not want in floor heating right now you have the option to upgrade in the future. The tubing is cheap and at some point with all your machine tools you will probably appreciate the thermal stability a heated slab provides.

This is all good advice! The running water is really handy. I have a toilet, shower..and "What the hell" while I was at it I put in a sauna. My office is 10 x 12...wish it were bigger...wish everything was bigger...but like Big Earl, there were set back and other contraints. Good luck!

Run all necessary lines plumbing air water BEFORE completing your expansion .

You'll REGRET NOT DOING IT LATER . Remember running drain pipe closet ring for a toilet water

outlets is inexpensive BEFORE CONCRETE IS POURED , It's A bit of bitch after words .

You just know you're going to have that one bowel of Chile some day and you can't make the stair flight !!!


http://www.askthebuilder.com/4...let_Flushes_Up.shtml

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/sewage.html

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
You just know you're going to have that one bowel of Chile some day...

Not sure if that extra letter "e" was a typo, or intentional, but it was funny either way!

With all the machinery in there, make sure you have a wide enough door that makes it easy to move things in and out.

You'll need double the light you estimate, and double the number of electrical outlets AT BENCHTOP LEVEL. You'll want rolling storage bins to fit under the workbenches and so they'll be easy to roll out of the way for cleaning (and hunting for that !@#$%^&! spring!). Bookshelves are nice and a small drafting table is handy for laying out projects, you can hinge it from the front of the bookshelf so it folds up out of the way when not needed and will help to keep swarf & dust off the books.

As already mentioned, you should have at least one free-standing vise pedestal with good side clearance ALL THE WAY AROUND. J-bolt imbeds in the concrete for bolting the vise pedestal base are OK but a more-rigid design would be to have the pedestal itself imbedded in the slab, with solidly-welded side extension legs postioned between the double layers of wire reinforcement you'll need in that area.

Gundog is right-on about the epoxy paint (and the vapor barrier). We use it in the commercial nuclear industry for floor surfacing among other things and it holds up quite well to movement of heavy items, even with the steel Hillman captive rollers required to move things over 2 tons or so. When I was current on prices 20 yrs ago, a gallon of good-quality epoxy paint cost over $100 at that time when bought in quantity.

Chemical toilet. Eyewash station!
Regards, Joe

Thanks for all the advice guys, it’s really appreciated and needed. Everyone has pretty much lead me to believe I absolutely need a toilet. This will probably need to go in the old garage as there is no way possible to get it past the building inspector. I will need to rent a trencher anyway to divert surface water. Being a coffee hound I will keep the funnel in the corner.
Clowdis: I will be running two rotaries and some of my small machines have single phase or statics already installed. As far as the TV goes it will be good to keep the children occupied while I work for now and will double as a monitor for cad/cam work and to run the CNC machines so I won’t need a separate PC.

Mark: might run the tubing, will need to see what my concrete guy says when I see him at the beginning of the week. I was believing all it would do is heat the bases of my machines and warm the anti fatigue mats. About nine months out of the year it won’t need to be heated at all and the machines are on machine feet or jack screws on pillows.

Duane: Got a hot tub I could put in but haven’t used it since I got it five years ago.

Gundog: That’s some great advice, and I have a S-W account already. Great paint, just a little on the thin side, I use it to paint machinery when I rebuild it. I will be moving around some heavy equipment as I have two lathes over 5000 pounds and the VMC is an even two tons and I have been using a jack bar and one inch round stock so far. Will need to rent a fork truck to move everything the necessary twenty –thirty feet. Will pick up the vapor barrier tomorrow regardless, that was something I didn’t think of and am very glad you mentioned it! By the way, can sulfuric acid be used in place of the muriatic acid? I have a couple gallons of that stuff on the back deck and was wondering what to use it for.

Duckboat: I will only have the 36 inch service door but will have a takeout wall for moving machinery in and out. I am about as fickle with machinery as can be and already have some more toys that I am looking at.

J.D: My heavy table (1200 lbs) has a nice vice already mounted on it and if I can pull that off the ground yanking on a gun part I will truly need to have a toilet close! My barrel vise will stay in the old shop and is more than adequately mounted. As far as the rolling storage bins, I will only have one ten foot bench that will have space underneath it and I have two Rubbermaid carts and a rolling surface plate cart that need to go there. Thanks for the advice and testimony on the epoxy floors.

The plumbing supply houses are pushing a toilet with a pump built into the back. Would it be easier to pump it over to an existing waste line?

John: I talked to my local S-W dealer today and he recommended one of their epoxy floor coatings and will help talk me thru it. Guessing it will be March before I can put it down and might even be April if things slow down. Did buy a 6 mil sheet of plastic today and will make sure it goes down as well. I really wanted a painted floor but too be honest, figured it would end up screwed up with machinery being moved around. I do now have a commercial account with S-W so will be getting a better deal thru my company (Capehunts.com).
J-Zola: About the only way I can plumb it is into an existing line. That’s the problem. I might just dump it into the surface water runoff drain and strait into the back yard. No neighbors and I can do it after the inspection.

BE, I believe sulphuric acid will be too reactive for your purpose, muriatic is not nearly as strong. Now, a lot depends upon the molarity (concentration) of the acid that you use but I've used acid before in concrete applications and in my very limited experience sulphuric was used for cleaning hardened concrete from tools while muriatic was used to prep surfaces by providing a small 'tooth'. IOW the suphuric was used to actually dissolve the concrete while the muriatic merely etched the surface.
Regards, Joe

couple things to do to the floor. 1st make damn sure than it is good and level so you won't have to screw around shimming machinery. there are various hardners that you add to the concrete, trowling them in as you wait for it to set. these are not very expensive and will increase the hardness of about the top 2" to over double the strength of plain. you can also add color, and you would be surprised how much a white colored floor will brighten things up. then after its done there is a buff in sealer that is mainly finely ground glass. it will resist almost anything save wd-40. oil spills wipe right up.

Big Earl ; I've used this trick more than a dozen times . When hiding plumbing say for mounting a

toilet later . Be sure the waste pipe is buried at the appropriate drainage angle 1/8-1/4" per foot Normally used .

Now terminate the sewer line hook up side or break in and hook it up either way works prior to inspection .

The trick is leaving the toilet waste connection BELOW concrete level and pouring over the top !.

What toilet ? . Measure where your toilet will be normally 12" from the inside of your finished wall

to the center of the waste drain pipe . Prior to pouring concrete dig a 12" square area around where

the toilet is to be mounted and your 90 Degree waste pipe sweeps up into .

Leave it below the finished concrete grade enough so you can later place a coupling and closet ring on

it to make it flush with your finished floor ( Closet ring actually sets on top of finished floor )

Leaving the drain pipe below grade is easy ( ABS Plastic pipe is a cinch ,Cast Iron a little tougher )

Place a temporary cap or layers of duct tape over the pipe . Now get a 12"-16" square plastic box .

Plumbers use them as trap boxes they're also known as " Sand Boxes " !. Place the box where your toilet

will center . Fill it with sand about 3/4" -1" from the top of your finished pour grade .

Pour concrete finish as normal , after all other inspections are completed and

final is approved . Now remember by measurement Where the toilet goes chisel a little concrete out.

Now finish connecting waste pipe and closet ring ,pack the sand back an wet it down ensuring a nice

fill to the level of the bottom of your slab , A small bag of ready create DONE DEAL .

In your state or area is framing and electrical inspection one inspection ?. What about insulation ?

do they require that as a separate or is it all together ?. The reason I asked is running vent pipe

for a sink and toilet along with water lines can be smuggled in between and hidden if necessary .


Now for something I know much more about !. Please Read this page ,

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/scoat4u.html


Most swimming pool acid is 90% water and 10% Muriatic acid which is the correct mixture ratio .

Most home centers carry swimming pool acid , just check label for mixture strength .

If you must mix real Muriatic acid be DAM SURE to add acid too the WATER and not the other way around .



This has never failed to my knowledge ; Use a heavy plastic say 6 mil vapor barrier on top of your

pouring grade soil plastic sets under concrete. Allow to cure 30-45 days if it's cold and damp

WAIT UNTIL proper weather permits concrete to dry and finish curing . Acid wash concrete rinse with 10%

solution of water and baking soda ( Neutralizes acid ) rinse again with plain water .

Now Allow to dry thoroughly several days with proper ventilation .

You pick your floor coating these folks make QUALITY STUFF . BOL !.



http://www.armorpoxy.com/comme...XWrp8CFRRabQod5EGoSA

http://www.endura.ca/

http://www.awlgrip.com/Pages/home.aspx

Last but certainly not least one of the company's I used to formulate for except my division was ANAC ;

http://www.akzonobel.com/brand.../devoe_coatings.aspx

It is too late for my suggestion, as you already have your flourescent fixtures. But, I would surely have recommended not using 4-foot fixtures at all. I have both 4-foot fixtures and 8-foot ones (in different areas), and there is no comparison. I always want/need more light than the 4-footers deliver. Bit by bit the government (feds) is ratcheting the wattage of available 4-foot bulbs steadily downward. They haven't moved as severely with the 8-footers because the 8-foot ones are classified as "commercial" lighting, while the 4-foot ones are classified as "home" lighting. At least that's what the local wholesale houses tell me.

(I also note they are the process of completely eliminating some incandescent bulbs.)

I'm starting to think they LITERALLY want to keep us in the dark.

This sounds weird, but is absolutely true: I worked for one of the Big-3 and when a new machine shop was being added, the union demanded the florescent lighting be pulled out and replaced with another (much more expensive) lighting system. Their reason was that the existing 60 cycle lighting would make any tool or stock that was moving at a speed divisible by 6 would appear stationary. Anyone out there make fact or fiction of this?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike in Michigan:
This sounds weird, but is absolutely true: I worked for one of the Big-3 and when a new machine shop was being added, the union demanded the florescent lighting be pulled out and replaced with another (much more expensive) lighting system. Their reason was that the existing 60 cycle lighting would make any tool or stock that was moving at a speed divisible by 6 would appear stationary. Anyone out there make fact or fiction of this?

I don't know if auto mechanics even use timing lights any more, but that is basically related to the same theory on which timing lights were based.

I haven't thought through what the unions said, but my immediate reaction would be that it could be possible if the tool/work rotation speed was evenly divisible by 60, but I wouldn't think so if it was just divisible by 6.

Even then there is so much bouncing light in a place like a well-lit machine shop that I would have my doubts. Light wave-lengths would vary, and so would the time travelled from the various sources in the shop. But, at 186,000 MPS, light travels so fast, who knows....will be interesting to research, so think I'll try.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike in Michigan:
This sounds weird, but is absolutely true: I worked for one of the Big-3 and when a new machine shop was being added, the union demanded the florescent lighting be pulled out and replaced with another (much more expensive) lighting system. Their reason was that the existing 60 cycle lighting would make any tool or stock that was moving at a speed divisible by 6 would appear stationary. Anyone out there make fact or fiction of this?

The 3 jaw chuck on the lathe in the shop that I work will "flash the jaws" at 1200 rpm I can only assume it is the lighting makeing it strobe.

Ted -

Yes, if it strobes once every 3 seconds, that could be the result of 60-cycle power...[1200 rpm divided by 60 (cycles) = 20]. 60 seconds divided by 20 = one "flash" impulse every 3 seconds.

Butch: by code, since it’s an extension to my existing garage and not its own structure, it needs to conform to the same code as the garage. That is, sloped for water drainage. This is not a problem as all my machines are either on anti-vibe feet or jack screws/pillow blocks. Several of the smaller lathes are on three feet with a spanner bar between the tailstock end to mount it like a Monarch EE. I am a machinist by trade and can set all the machinery without issues. I’m going with double re-bar in the concrete and will see if I can order fiberglass reinforced concrete. Don’t think I will need a harder surface since even the heavy tooling will be even supported but will check into it. A little education on this subject might turn up some useful knowledge just like Doc’s leads.

Doc: It took me a while to digest everything you posted; I have learned more about epoxy coatings than I think is probably healthy! I will most likely be going with the S-W coating: http://www.sherwin-williams.co...perf-epoxy/index.jsp
They can mix it to either match my machines (gray) or my cabinets (green). These are both custom colors that I have them mix for me now. While I truly love the idea of painting it best as possible, once the machinery is in place the “traffic” will be my slippers.
I will need to discuss the plumbing with my concrete guy when he excavates but I like the idea of your sand box. If nothing else I can stub in a supply line for a sink and just drain it straight out the side of the building. Looking over the property I will have another “foundation” 23 measured steps downhill from this one. It’s just a RR tie set up to level a 12x12 building for the John Deere but I am guessing it should have about 140 square feet of gravel backfill when I am done, would this be enough to drain a toilet strait into?

JD: I am starting to really like your idea of the vise mounted permanent. I seen in the new Gunmaker a pic of one with the barrel vise mounted on the side. I am still trying to figure the shop layout so that will be a factor.
Alberta Canuck: I got the lights at Home depot on sale for 4 bucks a fixture. I might be able to get a dozen four bulb four foot fixtures from work for free. I have been under florescent lights at high intensity for several decades now and really want the new shop to be a mix of florescent and incandescent that I can switch back and forth from. My eyes just cannot take the strain as there did in my earlier years.

John: I suspect I will be PM’ing you in another month or so asking for advice. You have been a real blessing.

Unless your planning on using the toilet for "liquid waste" only, I sure as shit (pun intended) wouldn't be flushing it into gravel backfill.

Put in water and drain for sink, and put in a toilet, Even if you have one just inside the house, soon the floor in your house will look like your shop floor. Phone line, and cable are handy, make calls, internet, or tv. A floor drain might not hurt as well.

One thing I repeatedly get zinged on by my wife is tracking metal cuttings from my machine shop in the garage into the house.
You need to consider the potential for that. If you have any carpets, getting metal filings out of a carpet means getting down on your knees and plucking piece by piece.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike in Michigan:
This sounds weird, but is absolutely true: I worked for one of the Big-3 and when a new machine shop was being added, the union demanded the florescent lighting be pulled out and replaced with another (much more expensive) lighting system. Their reason was that the existing 60 cycle lighting would make any tool or stock that was moving at a speed divisible by 6 would appear stationary. Anyone out there make fact or fiction of this?

I don't know if auto mechanics even use timing lights any more, but that is basically related to the same theory on which timing lights were based.

I haven't thought through what the unions said, but my immediate reaction would be that it could be possible if the tool/work rotation speed was evenly divisible by 60, but I wouldn't think so if it was just divisible by 6.

Even then there is so much bouncing light in a place like a well-lit machine shop that I would have my doubts. Light wave-lengths would vary, and so would the time travelled from the various sources in the shop. But, at 186,000 MPS, light travels so fast, who knows....will be interesting to research, so think I'll try.

You can see this effect in action when you turn power off; as the RPMs spin down from a high setting the chuck appears to slow, stop, and then reverse direction due to the strobing. I hadn't thought about it, but it could definitely be a safety issue if a certain RPM made the chuck appear stationary.

They came out and poured the footers today and should have the slab poured later this week. The second pic shows the gap for the water line and waste for the toilet, sink and urinal. My mutt, Springfield observing. I’m getting real anxious! About the time the weather breaks I will be framing and the concrete will get painted.

Looks like you've got a good start, but if/when they pour the floor try and pick a warm stretch in the weather and make sure they put enough insulating blankets on top to try and help it cure decently.

Nothing worse than pouring a slab in freezing temps. The top layer will freeze before it fully cures often and you'll get flaking later on.

As other have suggested, make sure they lay a good plastic barrier down and while it doesn't sound like you'll be putting in floor heat it. I'd still spend the few hundred extra bucks and put some 2" styrafoam down to help retain heat.

Make sure you tell them you plan to do that before they grade though to account for the foam thickness if you go that route.

If any areas are going to have any liquid I'd also recommend a floor drain, very little extra work to put it in before it's graded and sure comes in nice if you want to wash something or hose the floor down, etc.


Good Luck with your build