Mr. Belk,

I read one of your posts about the 1:1:1 mineral spirits, spar urethane, watco marine sealer recipe that you use for a stock finish. I would like to give this recipe a try, but apparently the watco marine sealer is no longer made. Is there something else that you have substituted for this ingredient? Or, do you know of any retailers that may have a stock pile of the stuff from before they stopped making it?

Thanks in advance,
Bob

I haven't a fraction of the wisdom of our friend, Mr Belk, in these matters.... but I am in the middle of finishing a beautiful piece of walnut for a 338-06AI which I've been gloating about for quite some time! Infact, to help fill a terrific snow day I applied the first finish coat over the sealer just moments ago. Here's what I've done, and so far I am tickled with the results:

Seal coat: 1:5, 1 part Man-o-War Marine Spar Varnish (satin) to 5 parts Mineral spirits. Liberaly applied twice in one day. I sealed the butt end and the inleting/channel too.

Fill Grain: 1:1, Man-o-War and Mineral spirits wet sanded with 320 grit sand paper, and gently wiped the sludge off with a rag. **The first wet sanding didn't really do much. I may have been too gentle and apprehensive about it. So for the second and third wet sanding I added a teaspoon of walnut dust to the 1:1 mixture. This worked faboulously!**

Finish Coat: A few days ago, after the third wet sanding was cured out, I gently buffed with 600 grit to remove dust and rag marks from the wet sand. Today, I wiped the whole thing down with Sea-Fin Teak oil. This leaves a georgous satin finish! I'll repeat this 5-8 times in the next week or two.

I've done other stocks before, but settled on this pattern after quizzing several fellas here on AR. Just take your time and be patient. Good luck!

Brent,

Thanks for the response. I thought linseed oil was typically rubbed in as a final finish. Unless I misunderstood, I belive that the 3 part recipe that Mr. Belk has provided is meant to be used as a first coat on bare wood (so maybe I shouldn't have called it a "finish"). Is the linseed oil alone just as good as a sealer for bare wood, or are you saying that it could be substituted for the watco marine sealer in this 3 part recipe?

I am going to be using this in a refinish job. How do you handle the checkering when refinishing? Strip it with a chemical stripper and refinish with the rest of the stock? Leave it as it is, mask it off, and finish around it? The finish on this stock is in fairly good shape in most spots, but I recontoured the stock in places and, obviously, need to get some finish on it.

TIA,
Bob

Bob---

They quit making it!!?? Yikes!!

Any thin marine sealer for teak or even the gold can Flecto Plastic Oil and Sealer works well. Look for the "Exterior and interior use" label.

I'd NEVER put linseed oil on ANYTHING but a US Military stock that was soaked with it to begin with.

As I've explained MANY times, linseed oil is added to paint as a flexible oil that allows wet wood to dry. It's NOT water resistant, much less water proof. Leave it to the artist that use it with oil paints *to keep them flexible*.

Mr. Belk,

Thanks for the response. When I couldn't find any Watco marine sealer at any local stores I went to their website and found their number so I called them today and the woman that I spoke with said that they no longer make the marine sealer. Although I have to say that she didn't sound to sure of what she was telling me. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!!!

Bob

bob,
try waterlox products, they make a marine sealer and many other tung oil and urethane based finishes. you could probably just switch trade names, might be worth a try.
bob

Waldog When yoy wet sand are you using the 1 to 1 mixture or water, I guess you can tell I don't have any time in finishing a stock the right way. But I would like to learn as I will be finishing one when I get my son's 1999 Montana barreled action later this summer.

"Wet sanding" means wet with whatever you're using to seal/finishig the stock with. The idea is that the dust combines with the finish, and it's wiped into the pores of the wood, then hardens, leaving a smooth surface. BTW, that was a question worth asking since you weren't sure!!

Yes it is true!

Bob got the scoop.

I just got an e-mail response from Rustoleum (they purchased Watco) that Marine Sealer is no longer being produced. I was going to start a new thread about this very topic but Bob beat me to it.

Jack, what properties did the marine sealer add to the spar. Didn't the thinned spar seal well enough on it's own.

I do some woodworking and am always looking for new finishing techniques.

Thanks, Larry

Powderfinger---

One of my closest friends was a sailor and a forensic scientist. He had a lab and a REALLY large curiosity. He told me about the thin, marine sealers that stabalized the wood fibres against thermal and mechanical flexing from sun, water, and waves. It seemed like a good idea for gun stocks and made me feel good to use it.

The goal is to carry the *right* thing deep into the wood and leave the *right* things on the surface.

The solids that make up a wood finish has different strengths and jobs to do.

How about an analogy??

The stock is a big haystack. An "On the wood" finish is like wrapping the stack in visqueen. It's good as long as the cover doesn't rip.

I prefer an "In the wood" finish which is about the same as soaking the outer foot of the hay stack in waterproofing gunk and then glue visqueen to the outside.

In the end it's mostly voodoo and we won't live long enough to prove our therories either way.

So I use what the dead guys did and add any kind of high tech stuff I can to make it better.
The truth of it is this---

If your finish fails in your lifetime it was a BAD finish.

Jack,
Interesting posts of yours about this. I enjoy the topic and enjoy finishing wood, esp. stocks that I use personally. But I have to disagree a bit. As far as I know, true oil-based (not urethane based) marine spar has linseed as does the watco stuff. Linseed in combination with heavier varnishes are on lots of rifles that are quite old. In fact, my 126 yr old Winchester Highwall gets along quite well its unretouched original finish that has a linseed base.

Anyway, I have put it on, oh, a dozen guns or more by now. Some as a maintenance item, some on bare wood. But I know of no "in the wood" finish that lasts a life time. Without some maintenance if used hard. My flintlock that goes through a week of wet snow at a shot, often several times per year. Yet it does quite well and has yet to be retouched even after 3 yrs of that sort of wet work. It also looks damn good.

I have treated my Merkel shotgun to Arrow Oil which is linseed based along with my Sharps. Both have had extended trips into wet snow (which is far worse than rain for my money). Arrow is linseed based.

Finally, in adding that final sheen or gloss, or whatever you prefer, wet sanding a finish of any type, or giving it a rotten stone treatment using linseed as the lubricant works very well.

No, I would never use a straight linseed finish, but for a really good looking finish that will stand extended time in the field under the worst conditions, a linseed based finish works wonders. And it even looks good, and that's the point right? Otherwise, we would just use plastic, but no one would seriously consider a plastic stock right?

For a more durable finish, and one recommended by Steven Dodd Hughes, the Laural Mt. Forge Permalyn finish is pretty darn tough, but it's not quite as pretty as a good oil-based finish, more "on the wood" than a decent oil finish. It is applied over a sealer of similar stuff by the same folks. See http://www.trackofthewolf.com/consign_detail.asp?consign_num=lmf-finish&styleID=226&catID=5&subID=66&offset=0

I have used this on only one gun so far, and it was rained on only a couple of times this year, but it sure was impressive the way it shed water. This is not easy stuff to use however. Though a good sheen can be obtained using linseed and rotten stone on top of the final coat of Permalyn.

Well, just my two cents with interest.
Brent

Since this thread has turned a bit, another question comes to mind. I have always used the "wet sand" method to get wood dust mixed in with the initial coats to quikly fill the pores on coarse, open wood. My impression is that this gives a bit of a muddy shallow look to the finish. If I have a really nice piece of tight grained wood, I wipe off the crud with turps between coats, and fill with the finish. This is then polymerized/oxidized in the wood. It takes more time, but it is my impression that I get a finish where the wood looks richer, deeper and has better color.

Have you stockmakers found this to be true??

I am also a firm believer that my results are affected more by technique than the product I use. About any product that will oxidixe and harden could be used. I like thinned Spar with a small amount of tung&Japan dryer, and have found urethanes more difficult to work with.

Roger

During my brief remodeling career I used enough different paints & urethanes to be convinced that there isn't all that much difference between them all.

I'm at the tail end of my first stock finishing job now -- a Boyd's laminate that was the quickest, most economical replacement for an ill-fitting factory synthetic.

I'm using General Finishes Sealacell -- two products, a stain/sealer that soaked in very well (they recommend one coat, I did two because I found some spots that needed more sanding) and a top coat called Arm-R-Seal. Very easy to work with, used according to instructions it's a built-up finish but could obviously be sanded in.

John

Brent--

As I said, linseed oil is added for flexibility. Not for waterproofing.

I responded to this quote by you.

quote:

---

Most of use use boiled linseed oil (no dryers) for this part of the recipe.

---

I was pointing out that linseed oil would be one of the *last* things I'd use as a third of my receipe and it didn't make sense to use boiled linseed oil for stock finish.

Since boiled linseed oil is sold as such I assumed that's what you meant.

Linseed oil would be very hard to get away from as a component of better finishes. It's a component in most varnishes.

Your Hi-wall originally had an alkylid varnish finish that's ok, but not near as good as the spar finish of the Deluxe grades. (yes, there is linseed oil in both of them).

What is called an "oil" finish is actually a varnish finish. How thick the varnish was when it was applied determines how much "on the wood" finish there is.

I don't wet sand to fill the wood. I use the 1:1:1 mixture all day long until it builds up into a glossy build up of finish ON the wood after the wood has taken all it'll hold IN the wood.

After it dries a week or three I scrape it back to the wood and THEN wet sand smooth and start a thin build up coat.

The wood grain is filled with spar varnish, not wood dust mud.

I'm in agreement with Jack, I never use Linseed oil or any of its derivatives....Tung oil yes, but not LInseed, it went out about 100 years ago except for certain applications...

I use 1 part Flecto Varathane, 1 part Mineral Spirits; 1 part Watco......or I will substitute about any good finish for the flecto Varathane such as Trueoil (Tung), whatever.....

Most of the modern stock finishes are about equal and the secret lies in application...Some stockers definately use one better than the other, therefore one must discover what works best for him within certain guide lines.

After the stock is filled and finished, then I have rubbed it down with scotch pad red or green, and rottenstone then applied a hand rubbed Linseed/Alkanet root coat are two to get that beatifull old world color and egg shell sheen that only Linseed will produce...Pilkington makes a simular last coat finish that works just as well and that is what I now use and very sparingly, but the stock is sealed in my regular finish......

Problem with Linseed is that it is short on solids and drying properties and never quit dries and hand rubbing tends to mix skin particles and dirt into a finish if the pores are open then that will come back and bite you in a few years as the skin parts and dirt decay and destroy the finish.....

It only makes since that these modern finishes are better, we now have the technology to produce the best ever finish...least we would still be using egg whites, Lemon juice and a little Linseed..that was a nice pretty finish but only lasted about a week....I've done that finish on a couple of collector pieces...quite nice.

Jack,

Your haystack analogy explained it very well.

Pretty much all of my finish jobs are an "in the wood and on the wood type". I thin the first few coats, let them dry and then cut back the finish till I fill the pores. The first few coats lay the foundation for the final coats.

I normally use a urethane based product but I am going to start trying some of the newer products now available. Like Ray said, we have the technology to produce better finishes than ever before. Might as well get my feet wet.

I believe that application and technique are as equally important as the product being used.

Application and technique meaning (black magic and voodoo)

Larry

All though a little harder to use, Permalyn is a good product and can deliver a highly protective and durable finish. It must be a liberaly applied, thinned solution. 1:1 with mineral spirits. Applied until the wood will not take anymore. Continue the application until the grain is filled and sand until the shiny spots are dull and re-apply and sand. Wet sanding with a thinned solution of Permalyn usually after three to four applications of the thinned solution has filled the grain. Once sanded, apply the finish with cotton balls wrapped in a nylon pantyhose material. Each application will deepen the finish. Some use oooo steel wool between applications, I prefer 600+ grit paper and sometimes up to 1200 grit depending on the desired gloss. Steel wool fibers can break off and lay in the grain of the wood, only to be found later as a rusty spot. (Automotive paint suppliers carry the 600+ grits) This finish not only inhances the character of the wood, it is easily repaired when the inevitable scratch appears, as is all the oil base products. Proper filling the capillary tubes is most important. A thinned solution will soak much deeper into the wood where the mudded sanding dust will not. Both deliver a quality appearance, but the deeper the solution penetrates, which by the way is not very much with any of the processes, the more resistant the stock is to denting and marring caused by the collase of the capillary tubes (grain)and the wood pores. Yellowing with age is the sometimes a problem with some of the easier to apply finishes. Tung oil and Permalyn do not seem to have that problem. Proper preparation and sanding techniques is more important than anything else. Never use sand paper without a backing block or shape to support the paper. Wooden dowels with glued pieces of rubber automotive hose over them work well for rounded surfaces. Make them in 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 5/8 inch diameter. Art gum erasers work well also for flatter areas. Pour the finish into smaller containers and eleminate air from the container as much as possible. The longer the finish is exposed to air the larger the collected molecules of finish become and it makes a little harder to get that smooth glass like image. If you can, buy 4 oz. or smaller containers or transfer the finish to smaller containers. We use gallons and if you work from a gallon can, the closer you get to the bottom the more syrup like and gritty it becomes due to the long exposure to the air. The quality of the finish, of the finish, is better judged by its reflective properties instead of direct viewing of your work. Experience is the best teacher and oil products are more forgiving than lacquer, utethanes or epoxys. Nothing is more pleasing on a firearm than a properly finish high grade of wood. Worth all the elbow grease that you will put into it.