I have heard in the past of gunsmiths making double rifles from double barrel shotguns. My question is what double barrel shotguns are best suited for the conversion? Is .470 NE too much for a 10ga receiver?

Thanks

It depends on the receiver , a 10 Ga. it's OK for a .577 if it's a good one .

Daniel

Scarecrow:
I have posted some of this before on another thread, hope you find it of interest.

Firstly, I would recommend getting hold of a copy of W. Ellis Brown's book 'Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions', a web-search will get you the supplier. Its not the last word by any means, but there's a serious paucity of literature on this most intersesting subject! The book is not cheap (!), but could be rolled into the cost of the project.

Ellis Brown likes modern metallurgy, heavy nitro proof, and a Greener crossbolt. He prefers German/European actions. His list of eligible cartridges includes the .303, 7x57 & 8x57, and all the flanged nitro-expresses. Take your pick! I'm a bit conservative, and would recommend the Light Nitro or "nitro-for-black" cartridges (ie 8 to 10 tons, rather than 15 to 20 tons!). Some of these cartridges are simply marvellous, plenty of punch without too much recoil means the rifles can be made a few pounds lighter and much handier. Nothing wrong with any of the .450 Expresses, tossing a 350 gr .458 Woodleigh at 1950 fps for around 3000 ftlbs of muzzle energy! ..or the 650 gr .577 at 1650 fps for almost 4000 ftlbs!

When planning a suitable conversion, the recommendation is to calculate the pressure thus:
For shotgun cartridges greater than 650 bar (9,428 psi), ie normal American 12-gauge, the East-German proof load according to "Standard Directory of Proof Marks" is 17,405 psi. Area of 12-bore cartridge head = 0.516 sq in, so total pressure on standing breech is 8,970 lbs.
Peak operating pressure of the .450 x 3 1/4 NE is around 17 tons (38,080 psi), with a cartridge head area of 0.23 sq in. This will result in 8,750 lbs force on the standing breech. Same ball park. There is a juggle here, comparing the shotgun PROOF pressure with the rifle OPERATING pressure, but modern proof is really testing the shotgun barrels, the actions are normally far stronger than the barrels. Also the brass rifle case with thick web adds a safety margin over the shotshell proof. This calculation is not absolute and is only a guide to exclude the high-intensity cartridges. Even so, it is imperative to prove the final conversion with a stiff proof load, just to be on the safe side.

I prefer the big Greener "Empire" action with its extra-long bar and heavy barrel-lumps. Some of my experiences with a double rifle built on this shotgun action are described here:
http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/GreenerStory.htm

All good!

Great story, but I didn't see any pics. I'm in the process of doing a 470 on a Belgian 12ga with greener cross bolt. The proof went fine and I've shot a bunch of 500's at 2100. So far I haven't been able to measure any off face. I did run into a cracked stock, so I'm in the middle of reinforceing it before I continue. I picked up the W Ellis Brown book and have been useing it as a reference. I originally picked up a 10ga to start with, but thought it might be too heavy and awkward so went with the 12ga instead. I'm not finished yet, but it seems like it should finish out alright.

I've been told that Merkel rifles are built on their shotgun action. Can any of you confirm that?

http://www.dressels.com/id179.htm
.405 Win. double rifle made from a Winchester Model 21 side-by-side shotgun,

tigertate,
Merkel does not monoblock a shotgun action and sleeve barrels into it to make a double barrel.

In monoblock barrels, the breech end of both barrels and lumps are machined from a solid steel forging, then the barrel tubes are fitted separately into this.

Merkel side-by-side double rifles are of chopper-lump construction, also called "demi-bloc barrels" whereby the lump and entire barrel are forged integrally, then right and left are joined and fitted.

Merkel has various boxlock and sidelock actions of the Greener and H&H type respectively.

I am sure they use the same action components to build their double rifles and shotguns (receivers, lock mechanism, etc.) and fine they are. I have heard that the now American company John Rigby double rifles uses the Merkel actions in their double rifles.

The Merkel 140 and 160 lines of 470 NE sxs are about the size of their 20 guage shotguns. However, they start from scratch and build both their double rifles and shotguns like bank vaults. They are so tight and solid, they need some shooting to break them in, as well as the shooter.

I don't want a double built on a shotgun action.

How about a 12 ga. double rifle?

Hobie--Find the threads about 12 GA From Hell,
in Big Bore Forum...Ed

Merkel builds shotguns on double rifle actions.
I would love to have a shotgun built on a double rifle action.

I'm with DaggaRon, I would like a double rifle with an accessory shotgun barrel assembly, and maybe a cape gun barrel assembly for when I can not choose between the two; all for the same frame

hubel458,

Perhaps I'm missing something. In the thread/topic 12 GA from Hell I do not see what I think it is you want me to see. Then I found the topic 12 Ga from Hell barrels , now that was interesting. However, it isn't what I was talking about.

I am certain that the answer to the orginal poster's question in this thread/topic is that different shotgun actions are different in their strength or ability to contain pressure. Ray, says he wouldn't want a double rifle built on a shotgun action... I say why not compromise and get a double 12 bore rifle. I was not thinking of building one, well, not exactly.

I did a search for such on the net and found some other interesting links such as Monty Whitley and Thad Scott along with many news articles from India and Pakistan on the legal but mostly illegal use of various 12 bore rifles.

Also this most recent issue of Rifle magazine has an excellent article by Ross Seyfried on the 12 Gauge Rifle. If one was confined to North America, the 12 bore rifle would suit very well. I'd prefer to use the RB with BP at what was apparently the usual 1300 fps or so. About like my Brown Bess, but rifled to be accurate to a bit greater range.

Ross is eventually going to cost me some real money. From .310 Cadet rifles to the Express guns in .450 and .500 to these 12 bore rifles... My wife will be doing another intervention.

Why not get a Paradox then? It will do what you want from a shotty and from a large bore rifle.

The 12ga from hell topic is very interesting, but I dont see anyone who actually found themselves a action that was strong eneugh or anyone who actually got a running example.

Even a single shot 12ga from hell seems nice, but fully loaded to what people like and I dont think I could survive the recoil.

Rick Stickley was a partner of John Bolliger and he made numerous double rifles on Browning 20 gauge S/S actions. It is done often.

Yep,
And Butch Searcy started off building 470 NE doubles on Browning SxS shotguns, until he could start making his own actions.

"I don't want a double rifle made on a shotgun action!"

Hey Ray, how about a shotgun built on a double rifle action? Merkel is one example of just such an animal! Their shotguns are built on double rifle actions. There have been many fine double rifles built on shotgun actions, Butch Searcy built a bunch of 470 NE, and many of the old Sharps rounds on Browning BSS S/S actions that were re-heat treated, and had a third fastener added. He has a customer who has one of his origenals, that has had several thousand rounds fired through it, and it is still tight at last report! All his rifles, now, are built from scratch, on his own actions bodies, milled from a single piece of stainless steel, along with the Mono-Bloc, and are as strong as any double rifle made in the world today.

There are many shotgun actions that simply do not have the "LOCK-UP" facilities to stand the pressures of even the low pressure Black powder express rounds.Most American made double shotguns, aren't even made well enough to consider, for anything bigger than a .22 Hornet! However, if one picks his actions with a little common gun sense, there is no problem with the finished product, if it is put together by someone who understands double rifle construction, and has the skill necessary to do the work! With that said, there are precious few, about, who have the know-how, and even less who posess the skill needed, to even work on an existing double rifle, much less built a viable double rifle from a shotgun action!

I agree with the people, above, who express their preference for German shotgun actions for this purpose. The Britt shotguns, outside being very pricey, and usually a collector item as well, are usually built to be very light. Since they have the same outside measurements as the same size action on a double rifle, the only ways to make that action lighter is to make them out of lighter alloys, or hog out mettel inside to reduce weight. For these reasons Britt shotguns do not make good candidates for conversion to rifle status!

I have built a few double rifles on Shotgun actions that are still running today, so it can be done, but the cost is usually high enough to run very close to a good used price on a real one. Unless you have the tools, and the skill to do a decent job on the project, I'd simply save a little more money, and buy a good used double rifle, and spend the extra effort on working up a proper load for it! That alone can be quite costly!

I had a double rifle built on a shotgun action by Rick Stickley and I stocked it...It was a pretty gun and it worked, but I was never comfortable with it and he had a lot of problems with them, at least locally..

I like that dolls head third lock on a double rifle, Butch was not satisfied with the shotgun actions..I don't think many folks are.......Browning BSSs need to be re-hardened if converted according to Rick Stickley.
Bottom line is I think its a waste of time and money to make a double from a shotgun...

If one wants to have shotgun barrels on his double rifle that also presents a problem as the rifle firing pins are not suitable on shotgun ammo and visa versa...and the holes they protrude out of also come into play, so this has to be changed out to be effective and thats way too much trouble for me...

I've read numerous articles on a fellow in Colorado that builds double rifles on Ruger 20 guage Red Label shotguns. Seems he has quite a backlog of orders and the rifles seem to work fine. In one article he was extoling the vertues of the Ruger action. Anyone know of this fellow?

Using Ruger Red Labels for double rifles is not new.

Jaeger, Searcy and myself were making them up in the mid 1980's.

Made up a lot of them in 375 H&H.

The trunion (pivot pin) is above the center of the bottom barrels and the locking lugs are just below the center of the top barrel. This reduces the amount of force that tips the barrels during firing.

Besides changing the firing pin dia. you also must change the hammers to non rebounding. Done right this also makes the top lever retract the hammers to half cock so the firing pins also retract so they do not bind on the primer, when opening the barrel.

I always made new monoblocks from 4142 steel and then you had the shotgun barrels for birds. Others cut up the shotgun barrels for the monoblock.

The extractors was always the hard part for the rimless cases.

Jim Wisner

I have one of those Ruger Red Label doubles in .338 Win Mag. It is not a DGR, but a nice novelty and conversation piece. It is an excellent brush gun that would be perfect for wild boar. I did find the load that works great in it, a 250 grain Hornady or Woodleigh soft or solid at 2450 to 2500 fps, using RL-22.

I have the 20 guage barrels with it. The original owners name was engraved lightly on the top barrel midline. I bought it used, in little-used condition.

No maker's name, but a Ruger serial number I have.

I wonder if I could ever find out who made this one. They did well. I am surprised to hear that so many folks made them, including Jim Wisner, Butch Searcy, and "Who" Jaeger?

Hmmmm. Browning S X S you say? I have one of these taking up space in the gun cabinet. 12 or 20 gauge? (Mine's a 12). Any idea who does this today? Interesting idea. - Dan

Dan,
I would say nobody does it commercially anymore, with the current availability of Merkel, Searcy, Krieghoff, Chapuis, and Heym SXS double rifles at reasonable cost.

Thanks Ron. - dan