What is the difference? I think there is another breed name to like Drakkar or something, they all look identical. Is there any real practical difference? I was hunting this weekend in sodak and an older gentleman comes out of the field next to us and there must have been 6, what I thought were Griffons, come running out. So I get to talking to him and he has been breeding German Wirehair's for sometime and says they are all the same, no difference. He also said they are the best hunters he's ever had.

Prewar70,
In my experience, all wirehaired dogs are not created equal. In general the Drahthaars are superior hunters but that doesn't mean that you can buy with your eyes closed. Examine the puppies for good conformation, ask the breeder to turn them loose and watch how they roam, clap near them and note the reaction.
select the best that is available from the litter after this inspection.
I have gone through 2 Drahthaars and they are bred for performance, a drahthaar can not breed and the litters be pedigreed unless they pass the mandatory field trials that include out of sight water retrieve and blood tracking as well as point and hold/retrieve on flushing birds. This guarantees that you are not buying a dog that has had the hunt bred out of him through generations of show dogs that never see blood.
Good luck.

John

Then can you tell me what breed is this?

I am under the impression that the Dutcht drahtar and German Wire Hair are the exact same - however I have never heard of the Griffon.













all above pictures are the same female dog.

i've been doing some research as there wasn't much of a response. I think your dog is a Griffon but you already know that. The GWP and Drahtar as you pointed out are the same. The gwp has shorter hair, taller, and narrower through the hips. Apparently there is quite a difference between the two. I'd be curious if anyone has experience with the two breeds and children. I've read the pointers are more aloof and range further. The Griffons having a gentler disposition and tend to hunt closer. I like the looks of the GWP better but the description of the Griffon more. So I thought I would see if anyone has any in the field working experience to shed some light.

Duggaboybuff and prewar 70,
The Drahthaars are not bred to phenotype, in other words, you can't just show a picture and say " that is a drahthaar". The whole point of the Deutsch Drahthaar is performance through continuous genetic selection.

The Drahthaar is a separate breed from their American derivative, the German Wirehaired Pointer. The Drahthaar is bred to a strict set of breed standards, which require testing in both ability and conformation before the dogs are allowed to be bred. The GWP, as registered by the AKC and the FDSB, don't have any controls on their breeding, so the breeds have begun to diverge, even though they are originally from the same stock.

That doesn't mean that a gwp or griffon won't hunt. They most certainly will, but in my opinion the Drahthaar is the superior dog.

To get an idea of the diferent looks of the Drahthaars yu can see 2 in this video:
dove shoot

Some drahthaars have longer coats and some are almost as short as a gsp. The liver colored bitch in the video is now 13 yrs old and is deaf from gunshots and age. If I let her she would still hunt and doubtless die in te field, thats how strong their instinct is.

This is the bitch in the video

This bitch is from "Cacique field", she is 8 months old.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
The Drahthaars are not bred to phenotype, in other words, you can't just show a picture and say " that is a drahthaar". The whole point of the Deutsch Drahthaar is performance through continuous genetic selection.

John,

there is also a phenotype for the Draahthaar. Certain standards approporiate to the race (like others like Jagdterrier and Teckel) have to be maintained regarding size, bones, teeth, hair, colour and so on. Also genetical defects are checked or statistically calculated.

However, the rule is that basicically "form follows function" or in other words, performance anc character play the dominant role in the selection of hunting dogs controll by the JGHV - Jagd Gebrauchs Hunde Verband.

Very nice dog on your picture. I once hunted partridge over a good pointing dog in Colonia, Uruguay. Very nice experience.

quote:

Originally posted by duggaboybuff:
Then can you tell me what breed is this?

I am under the impression that the Dutcht drahtar and German Wire Hair are the exact same - however I have never heard of the Griffon.













all above pictures are the same female dog.

i thought i was looking at pictures of my 20 month old bitch for a minute ,

I have a 2 1/2 yr old GWP named Chester...my third wirehair. When I was looking for a pup I searched for a breeder that had a breed line that was small in size with tight short coats.
Chester is about 50-55 lbs with a short dense coat. His facial furnishing (beard & brows) didn't really start to grow in until his second year. Here are a few of him.

On the road


Stalking the bunnies


Guarding his food...and pissed!

I am passing on information I think is correct- like anyhting on the internet, proceed with caution (and all spellings are approximate):
the Verein Deutsch Drathar (VDD) and German Wirehaired Pointer (GWHP) are the same dog, different from the wirehaired pointing griffon. I believe the griffon is typically a little larger and less wiry of coat.

The difference between the GWP and VDD is the VDD is closer in line with the original german breeding, requiring stricter criteria for registration and breeding of pedigreed dogs that might mean better hunters, and probably higher prices? I think you can have good or bad of either.

Also, there isa breed called the Italian Spinone that looks similar, may be larger with a milder temperment. The is also a breed from the Netherlands I believe, that is similar.

Here is how the The Deutsch Drahthaar Group on North America views the difference between the VDD and the GWP...for what it's worth.

http://www.vdd-gna.org/history.php

greatbasin,
That is a very nice dog. The last picture shows a lot of pesonality.

quote:

Originally posted by penrod72:
I am passing on information I think is correct- like anyhting on the internet, proceed with caution (and all spellings are approximate):
the Verein Deutsch Drathar (VDD) and German Wirehaired Pointer (GWHP) are the same dog, different from the wirehaired pointing griffon. I believe the griffon is typically a little larger and less wiry of coat.

The difference between the GWP and VDD is the VDD is closer in line with the original german breeding, requiring stricter criteria for registration and breeding of pedigreed dogs that might mean better hunters, and probably higher prices? I think you can have good or bad of either.

Also, there isa breed called the Italian Spinone that looks similar, may be larger with a milder temperment. The is also a breed from the Netherlands I believe, that is similar.

According to the American Kennel Club standard for the 3 breeds the Italian Spinone is the largest(Based on height and bone structure) then the German Wirehaired Pointer then the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. German Wirehaired Pointers Males 24" to 26" tall Bitches not less than 22". Griffons Males 22" to 24" Bitches 20" to 22".Considered a very serious fault to be over size. I don't really know anything about the Griffons except what I have read but I think I could enjoy owning one.

Go to the North American Versitile Hunting Dog Association or NAVHDA for further accurate information of all these breeds.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by greatbasin:
I have a 2 1/2 yr old GWP named Chester...my third wirehair. When I was looking for a pup I searched for a breeder that had a breed line that was small in size with tight short coats.
Chester is about 50-55 lbs with a short dense coat. His facial furnishing (beard & brows) didn't really start to grow in until his second year. Here are a few of him.

On the road


Stalking the bunnies


Guarding his food...and pissed!

What a dog!, I can just imagine a prospective house burglar seeing this guy!

Prewar 70,

Do you want to buy a Drahthaar?

Big time differences between a Deutsch Deutsch Drahthaar, A.K.C German Wirehair Pointer and A.K.C. Griffon.

Deutsch Drahthaar breeders are very strict in the VDD-GNA guidelines as well JGHV under F.C.I
The DD breeder must understand the 4 common breeds that make up the DD to avoid bad conformations and most importantly coat quality and types. The DD is made up of Griffon, Stichelhaar, Deutsch Kurzhaar (German Shorthair Pointer) and PudelPointer.

There are no A.K.C. GWP breeders knowledgeable about these lines to improve the GWP coat or conformation but only to make it worse as time goes by. Alot of GWP breeders are secretly breeding to English Pointers and Deutsch Drahthaar's.

I've spent two to three year's looking for a A.K.C. GWP but was very disappointed in the huge variation in coat type such as length and coarseness. I only saw "1" pup that had a "true wire" haired coat out of maybe 30 litter's!!!!!!!!
That pup that had a true "wired haired" coat ended up being beardless as a adult but somehow it became a Field trial champion and champion show dog according to A.K.C.
The American Kennel Club is a JOKE!!!!!!!!!!

Do a search for Deutsch Drahthaar under this forum and you'll see some of posting.

BTW, I wouldn't touch a Griffon registered with A.K.C. unless it was recently imported from Czech Republik or better yet Germany.

Greatbasin,

you got a great-looking GWP which perhap's is line-bred on Pudel-pointer?

Is the coat harsh/coarse? if not, does it repell water?

Could you post the pedigree since it look's like it has DD infusion in the last 3 to 5 generation.

BTW,
You're lucky.

Greatbasin? it's okay to admit it.

norsman is right AKC is a joke my problem is that they don't recognize the difference in a field springer spaniel and a bench springer spaniel as they don't with the wire hair breeds and others there is a big difference between field and bench lines within the same breed and those differences should be recognized

Norseman,
Sorry, I've been away. My dogs coat is quite harsh with 2 layers, and never seems to shead at all. He is out of SLC and I tried to find his papers but it seems I have misplaced them in my last move. If I remember correctly his Dam or Sire was out of a kennel in the midwest named OKK Kenels. The NAVDA guy I found with this litter, I like, because he had proven hunters and his dogs were very compact...my last GWP was almost 80 lbs...just too big for his hips. Right now my dog keeps catching birds in the yard and tries to bring them in the house

SLC?

there alot of Drahthaar breeder's there in Utah. Lucky you being the the fact that you got a dog with a decent coat as well as being shed-less. But however, I am still curious though about the breeding background.

And?

Perhap's a Deutsch Drahthaar cross A.K.C. GWP?

I'm curious though?

quote:

Originally posted by greatbasin:
If I remember correctly his Dam or Sire was out of a kennel in the midwest named OKK Kennels.

Nice looking dog! I have a couple of dogs out of OKK Kennels. There was a littermate to my male that whelped a litter in Utah a couple of years ago. I don't know any details, but her name was OKK Cascade Flo.

quote:

I have a 2 1/2 yr old GWP named Chester...my third wirehair. When I was looking for a pup I searched for a breeder that had a breed line that was small in size with tight short coats.
Chester is about 50-55 lbs with a short dense coat. His facial furnishing (beard & brows) didn't really start to grow in until his second year. Here are a few of him.

This is an example of what has happened with the AKC system. The standard calls for a male to be 60-75 lbs and 24-26" at the shoulder. Over the years the GWP has become just another "bird dog", bred down in size and substance...in addition to being white, fluffy and often soft coated. Not saying these dogs can't hunt...just seems like the GWP no longer resembles the breed it came from.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:

quote:

I have a 2 1/2 yr old GWP named Chester...my third wirehair. When I was looking for a pup I searched for a breeder that had a breed line that was small in size with tight short coats.
Chester is about 50-55 lbs with a short dense coat. His facial furnishing (beard & brows) didn't really start to grow in until his second year. Here are a few of him.

This is an example of what has happened with the AKC system. The standard calls for a male to be 60-75 lbs and 24-26" at the shoulder. Over the years the GWP has become just another "bird dog", bred down in size and substance...in addition to being white, fluffy and often soft coated. Not saying these dogs can't hunt...just seems like the GWP no longer resembles the breed it came from.

My dog is not registered with AKC, not white, fluffy or soft coated and right on the lower limit of your weight standard. So, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about with regards to my dog?

Lett me start by saying there are some fine GWP out there I would be happy to own. Even if Your GWP may even be able to out hunt my DD in the upland field, that does not make him the same as a DD.

If you are going to breed a DD you have to pass two breed standard test, and breed show. The test grades will be attached to his papers for all to see. Its all about breeding to a standard and producing versatile hunting dogs.I have seen several fine hunting dogs fail to make the cut for one reason or another. Being a fine hunting dog is not enough!

The dog should be as able to hunt wild boar as well as point woodcock or quail , retrieve ducks as well as tree a raccoon or a bear, or follow a blood trail thats 40 hours old as well as chase bunnies on the back 40.

My DD or not as good in the heat as my English pointers were, or a could run derby or open retriever trial as well as my labs could.

If the weather is cool enough they are bird finding machines for a hunter on foot , or as good as any lab at bringing the ducks back to the boat. They are naturals at blood trailing and tracking. They have great vision and wonderfully noses.

My two DD's are gentle with my granddaughter, have walked in dog parades with snappy little purse dogs, with out snapping back at one. I am 100 % sure they would fight to the death to defend me or my wife if called on to do so against any threat. No they are not perfect, and all DD's are not equal some breeders are better than others. My older dog could not be certified for breeding ( only one nut came down) but is a true versatile hunting dog across the board , my puppy from another breeder may become a great dog if I get my act together as a trainer. He pointed the first quail I planted for him , I then shot it , he retrieved it , we been hunting since. He blood tracked my 10 point in a misting rain at 7 months, and started duck hunting last month a 15 months of age with his first retrieve being a double. He is truly a Draththaar

If you are shopping for a dog,and are willing to spend a little extra money your odds of getting a good dog, that can do it all are better with the DD than any other breed out there. You can get good gwp, puddle pointers. griffon's but it is harder. You can get certain jobs done better, with breeds like English pointer, or Chessies, or Beagles. Its real hard to better than a DD if you want a dog that can and will do it all and sleep at the foot of the bed

I am sure that your GWP is a fine dog, but he is not a DD.

JD

quote:

I am sure that your GWP is a fine dog, but he is not a DD.

JD

JD, I'm not sure if your post was directed to me or not but since you used my quote I'll assume it was...

I never said I had or wanted a VDD. I know what I have, and I know the differences between the two breeds, I posted a link earlier describing those differences. It sounds as if you have a fine dog, too.

quote:

Originally posted by greatbasin:

quote:

I am sure that your GWP is a fine dog, but he is not a DD.

JD

JD, I'm not sure if your post was directed to me or not but since you used my quote I'll assume it was...

I never said I had or wanted a VDD. I know what I have, and I know the differences between the two breeds, I posted a link earlier describing those differences. It sounds as if you have a fine dog, too.

I sorry hit the wrong button, That is a great loooking GWP you have there. Looks like strong puddle pointer influnce in the background some where.

My dogs breeder just sold a started dog that could be his brother, The DD was a little larger and stouter of body. Do you do anything with him other than chase birds?
You don't see many all brown DD's though.

JD

Greatbasin?????????????????????????

Again, what's the pedigree on your GWP????????????

His breeder was big into NVHDA and either the Dam or Sire were out of OKK Kennels but my dog is not registered anywhere. We just hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by greatbasin:
His breeder was big into NVHDA and either the Dam or Sire were out of OKK Kennels but my dog is not registered anywhere. We just hunt.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1484

Does this pedigree look familiar (your dogs dam)?