I'm looking hard at this breed to replace my late Brittany. I've been warned that many if not most of the breeders on the West coast have let too much show blood into the lines, making for disappointing hunters with poor personalities. A Griff expert I know is urging me to get one from a kennel in the Midwest for hunting soundness and good personality. Anyone here have Griffs? How do you like them?

I am in the same position as you, and everyone has recommended I look at the Pudelpointer instead. After doing some research of my own, that is what I am doing

WPG are great dogs and they take great lenghts to control the breeding so as to only breed the dogs with the greatest ability and potential. Check with the WPG association and they can provide you a list of approved breeders who must test and qualify there dogs before they can be breed. They are versatile and hard working. The ones I have hunted behind have been great. They can be aloof and are not the friendliest dogs for strangers but are great family pets and very loyal. There are some good WPG breeders in MT and ID.

Get a Deutsch Drahthaar and never look back.

WWW.VDD-GNA.ORG

WPG have poor coat qualities here in USA, to get a halfway decent coated WPG, you will have to import from Czech Republik or Germany.

Deutsch Drahthaar are made up of Deutsch Kurzhaar, Korthal's Griffon, Deutsch Stichalhaar and Pudelpointer.
Versatile hunting machine!

Thanks guys. I am in contact with the WPG association and am also considering Drahts and Pudelpointers. We're looking for a low-shedder as well.

Bill, I have to chime in as a proud owner of a 2 yr old now Griff. I'm here in MN and there is what I think a strong group of owners and breeders that have been involved in the breed for a long time. My pup came out of N. Iowa, Coppershot Kennels. My dog has a beautiful coat and shorter haired for a Griff which is a big benefit in the field. He has no shortage of prey drive. Is an excellent retriever. Loves the water. And importantly, wants to please. He's a family dog first and is very friendly, not standoffish, great with the kids. His shedding is minimal, and I'm a fuss about that. It's a lot easier cleaning up after him then when I had a lab. He's very trainable too. I will say that I was told the breed can be "soft" and I have found that to be true. If I look at him cross, he feels bad. Now this attribute helps a lot with the trainability but can be a negative for pushing beyond the easy stuff and getting into more difficult training. He responds well to the e-collar but I don't use it a lot. He's just starting to gain some of the 2-3 year old I know everything stage, which I like to see actually. He was very attached to me, to the point in the first 1.5yrs he had separation anxiety, pissed the kennel when I would leave home. We have worked out of that though but I will tell you it was stressful. During that I spoke with his litter mates owners and they were not experiencing it. It's not uncommon though for the breed to become very attached like this so to do over again I would try to induce more self reliance and independence earlier on. Again, this is a double edged sword because he really pays attention to me when I'm talking. Put him in the field though and he's off like a rifle shot, looking for game. He loves the field, great nose, good tracker, etc. Anyway, as with all things your mileage may vary. I'm very happy with my choice and looked at all the breeds mentioned here when deciding. I steered away from the Drahthaar because of the tendency to be more aggressive and I've met some that are real sweethearts, I just didn't want to take a chance. Owners might say that's a bunch of bull but its not. Again, that doesn't mean everyone is. Bottom line is put your money into the most reputable breeder you can find, with a good track record.

Most people don't know the difference between a Drahthaar and a GWP.

Prewar70,
please explain "more aggressive" and what is it that you don't want to take a chance on as well as a bunch of bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
Get a Deutsch Drahthaar and never look back.

WWW.VDD-GNA.ORG

WPG have poor coat qualities here in USA, to get a halfway decent coated WPG, you will have to import from Czech Republik or Germany.

Deutsch Drahthaar are made up of Deutsch Kurzhaar, Korthal's Griffon, Deutsch Stichalhaar and Pudelpointer.
Versatile hunting machine!

The Korthal's Griffon is the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. It is not the same as the German Wirehaired or Deutscher Drathaar. The German Wirehaired & Drathaar are the same breed with different breeding and registration organizations and emphasis.

Bill, I've been researching breeds for 6 months including visits with leaders in the NAVHDA and meeting the versatile breeds. I placed a deposit on Griff last week and will pick up a pup in a couple of months. At this point in our lives, the Griff seems perfect.

Oday450,

Most breeder's of Korthal Griffon would outright claimed that they are NOT Wirehaired pointing griffon and vice versa.

who said KG or WPG is the same as a GWP or a DD?

Just to let you know, the Deutsch Drahthaar is NOT the same breed as a German Wirehair, perhap's it was 60 to 70 years ago.

Different breeding?
Registration?
Emphasis?

I will admit misreading the "made up of" and I have not researched that statement to validate that this was the cae. I disagree with the statements that the GWP & Drathaar are not the same breed with just different registration organizations. Do your research, I have and I have hunted over them in Germany and here in the states. The Drathaars are registered with the VDD I believe and must be field proven as I recall.

Do your research on the WPG - check Pegeska's web site and others Korthal's and the WPG are the same.

Preparing for a funeral now with no time for debate or to post links but I have been researching these things for a full 6 months and am confident the above is accurate. Wikipedia is not an expert source but the first line is the WPG, called Korthal's in UK etc ... And other breed sites also reference the two names. Check Griffonpoint.com - a good reference. "kortahl's (Aka WPG)"

From Deutschdrathaar.com
"The German Wirehaired Pointer and the Deutsch Drahthaar come ultimately from the same origins. The essential difference between the two breeds is that breeding regulations of the Deutsch Drahthaar is regulated by the German Breed Club, the Verein Deutsch Drahthaar, whereas the German Wirehaired Pointer has been bred outside the VDD system.

That said, the physical appearance, hunting ability and nature of these dogs can be identical in every respect, especially in Europe, though in some countries – such as in the USA – years of different breeding regulations and separate breed standards has lead to a difference between the German Wirehaired Pointer and the Deutsch Drahthaar.

The most essential difference is that a Deutsch Drahthaar can be registered as a German Wirehaired Pointer and interbreed, but a dog bred as a German Wirehaired Pointer, outside the VDD breeding regulations, cannot be registered as a Deutsch Drahthaar ever again."

Oday450,

Your info is not accurate and very vague. You need to do more research assuming that you know how to do research. I been involved with Deutsch Drahthaar's for over 15 years. I would have to say that I am more qualified than you are the subject between a GWP and DD being the fact that I have owned, trained, hunted and entered hunt tests with Deutsch Drahthaars with JGHV and NAVHDA.

Deutsch Drahthaar's are required to pass several hunt tests, Hip Dysplasia xray rating, OCD xray rating, bleeding disorders test and a breed show NOT dog show to determined the conformation and coat scoring. While Deutsch Drahthaar is going through all of these tests, it must not show aggressions to other dogs and/or people before any planned breeding can take place. Most breeder's of Deutsch Drahthaar try to maintain a motherline to improved the breed, such motherlines are Deutsch Kurzhaar, Korthal Griffon, Stichalhaar and pudel pointer.
What motherline does AKC GWP breeder have to improve their coat or conformation or hunting abilities? They don't, they don't know what motherlines is!.

The hunt test requires passing field work, water work, cooperation, blood tracking, fur and fowl tracking and etc's to weaned out the inferior in order to protect the breed for future hunters. I almost acquired a GWP back when I wanted a versatile pointing dog but was disappointed and disgusted with coat qualities and large variations in length among the pups in each litter. Then one day I approached another GWP breeder and noticed that half of the litter had decent coats and the other half was soft and fluffy, so I asked what the deal here? he said he bred his bitch to a Deutsch Drahthaar that failed the hunt test requirement, and I asked what's the hell is a Deutsch Drahthaar and he responded it's a German version of a GWP that has to pass hunt tests. So I asked myself why not get the real thing??? a Deutsch Drahthaar? I never looked back.



What is required of the GWP or a Griffon? Nothing at all, just send in a check for a pedigree from AKC!!!!

By the way, the authors of Deutschdrahthaar.com has been avoided from alot of Deutsch Drahthaar breeder's in Germany and Austria and recently Italy for violations of
VDD breeding requirements, he and she bred them to show dog GWP under U.K.C. As a result of this F.C.I won't honor U.K.C registry.
They have been denigrating the breed mixing DD with GWP. It appear's they were only interested in pounds while not protecting the breed for future hunters.

Deutsch Drahthaar have superior coats and conformations to AKC, CKC,and UKC GWP unless it was recently bred to a DD.

What it should boil down to, will the future hunter have a better chance of obtaining a biddable, easy training and cooperative pup with decent coat and conformations with no future health problems by obtaining a GWP, Griffon or a DD?

I think we are saying the same thing. The GWP & DD are the same breed. The DD is bred with emphasis on hunting, breeding is tightly controlled, and registration is only by the VDD. I think this was my first point.

I have done research - I'm a healthcare consultant. Those were the 2 most easily found as I was preparing for my mothers funeral w little time to write a treatise.

No need to argue an agreed upon question.

Addendum:

It's apparent that you and the VDD may feel that they are separate breeds. Of the 11 dog books in my library, the first two I checked indicate they are the same breed. Several kf the others do as well. The first is the Kennel Club GWP comprehensive guide. The WPG book also indicates that it and the Korthl's are the same. So ... It seems clear that the difference is again the breeding with field emphasis and registration.

In any case, any hunting dog should be chosen based on lineage,field capabilities, etc. Too many breeds have been ruined by emphasizing confirmation rather than capabilities. Show rings and puppy mills are an anathema.

In my case, the WPG pup is from a repeat breeding from Canadian and French field proven lineage. A dog with proven hunting genes and not a show dog. I feel that's the difference between the GWP and DD as does the VDD.

BTW - a DD was in our short list for a new pup based on my hunting over them in Germany but my wife wanted a bit smaller dog. so the WPG was the one selected.

Like any hunting dog breed, there are good WPGs and ones not worth feeding. Find a good breeder who breeds for the qualities you are looking for and you should be fine. Ultimately, it is up to you to do the research. NAVHDA results are a good indicator, but not the only one. There is a split in the WPG community in the States. One group is concerned with breeding "pure" WPGs while the other allowed outcrosses with Cesky Fouseks in order to bring back some traits they felt had been lost in the WPG. You can find good dogs from both groups, but there is definitely some animosity between them. Do your own due diligence.

Cesky Fouseks cross WPG?
Was that F.C.I. or AKC registry?

The American Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Association (AWPGA) maintains the pure WPG bloodline and is the AKC recognized breed parent organization.

The Wirehaird Pointing Griffon Club of America (WPGCA) has allowed cross breeding with the Cesky Fousek in the U.S. This was the cause of the formation of the latter organization and there are strong opinions in both groups on which is the correct approach. I have been told by AWPGA officers that WPGCA can not be registered with the AKC but have not verified this.

Which one get's F.C.I paper's and registering with J.G.H.V that's a parent hunting registries instead of show dog in registries like AKC??? There must have been a reason for WPGCA going out of registries and crossbreeding or better yet "MAINTAINING" the conformation, coat and hunting abilities. It look's like a club re-invented the wheel again!

Griffonpoint.com, one Griff info source, states the following:

The WPGCA cross-breeds cannot be registered by the FCI, AKC, CKC, NAVHDA or FDSB and so cannot enter the Fullblood Griffon Gene Pool."

Thanks fellas. Boy it doesn't take long for the politics to flare up when discussing breeds, eh? I have heard the pudelpointer breeders are working hard to ensure the breed is not recognized by AKC in order to keep the dreaded show breeders disinterested. Makes sense to me.

Bill, it's the same with Deutsch Drahthaar, they do not allow show dog type agenda's, just breed show against a set standard.

Politics? here's one for you pudelpointer groups have split up as well, pudelpointer here in USA were breed with English pointer again, to improve the natural hunting and pointing abilities.

Have you check into the Deutsch Drahthaar?
What are your intentions in a bird dog? Waterfowl or upland game?
Wild or release game birds?
How often do you plan on hunting?

Norseman, sorry not to have replied sooner. My intention is to hunt wild birds: grouse, chukar, quail and pheasant. I probably will hunt only a few times a year. I am 60 and don't cover the ground quite like I used to. There are two North American Pudelpointer Alliance breeders about three hours from me, and another who is not a fan of the alliance but who trials through NAVHDA about two hours from me.

Well Bill,

I will be honest with you, a Drahthaar will be too much dog for you being the fact that you will only hunt a few times a year. Stick with those Brittany. Nothing wrong with a Brittany for what you do.

Thanks Norse. Appreciate frank comments.

Bill,

Another thought on DDs. We have one and love him, but if we lived and hunted anywhere warmer we'd go with a different breed. The Canadian breeders all seem to warn people about their low heat tolerance. We certainly have to be careful with our DD when hunting in temps over ~17C.

Enjoy your pup,
Dean

DD do quite well south of the Canadian border all the way down to northern California and Nevada. Been there and done that. All high elevation chukar hunting, 2500+ foot elevation plus starting second weekend in October. It's just matter of conditioning your dogs and yourself while maintaining proper fluid intakes.

Let me throw some gas on the fire. I am just an old country fellow that likes a good dog. I have had my share of different breeds. Some of the best dogs I ever had we're dogs that were run heavy handed, and then given to me. I am by no means a dog whisperer. I have come home after a days hunting with very little voice left. Running English pointers and short hairs.
I have seen a fair bunch of high dollar dogs that were supposed to be something great and wonderful. They were good pups but not anything I was looking for.
I get to an age of where I settle down and have more patients. Then my very best friend that I take care of his pups when he is gone comes up with a bull of a dog. For free no less. It took a bit of doing but he was brought around. With kind words and praise. He passed on this past winter and I lost a true friend. The thing is that dog wasn't mine.
Prior to this a few years and a few more dogs all of the same breed I decided I had to have one. Problem being nothing I could afford or was going to pay for. My buddy in the mean time had two.
Now I don't know what the rest of you want to call them but I amtd these bare German wire haired pointers.
I have to say this is one of the best all around 360 degree pups I have ever owned. She is out of Minnesota. I can find out more if anyone has interest enough to enlighten and educate me
We tried to breed her to the old male. Just no lead in the pencil as she never did take.
If there is anyone in the state of Kansas I would surer me to have a least one litter out of her.
Post up or contact me by email.
There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.
I am a ears because I surely do want to keep this breed clean and away from the show stuff
Jeff

Drahthaar or wirehair?

Guy on ifish, DogZilla, has Griffons. He seem's to really like them. He was saying something about the dogs out here getting to much show blood. He would be the guy I'd talk to if I were looking at a griffon. Had a Dr moving down from Alaska to The Dalles stop by looking for birds. He had two Griffons, they were nice looking dogs but no idea what they hunt like. Got his phone number if you want it.

lady in Terrebonne raising wirehairs has some really nice dogs, wireswest Wirehairs. have her number too if you want it. Maybe not but an address and can get the phone number with one call.

Bill/Oregon,

what breed of dog did you end up with?

Hi Don: I am in touch with Dogzilla via Ifish.

Norseman, I have held off getting a pup as we sold our home and moved to a rental in central Oregon while we build a custom home. Once that is done, I will be back in the dog hunt. I now have a couple of pudelpointer kennels within 30 minutes of me, so will check them out first.

Few days ago I was out training with a friend. She brought along another couple out of Bend that had an 8 wk old griffon with them. Teased the pup with a bird a little and let the bird fly. That pup really chased hard for an 8 wk old. Gonna be a bird dog for sure. They got the pup from someone in Idaho. I could get the name if you like.

Don, Just got a Pudelpointer from Steve at Tall Timber.

My mistake, meant to reply to Bill/Oregon

Bill i own labs ,english pointers and dogos .But i have had many german dogs and my guides still have some .My advice if pointing isnt a must get a labs they are the best all around dogs and of course the best in the family .If you want a pointer get one of the german breeds they are easier inside the house ,of course the MUST have hunting ancestors.

Well Bill, where the photo of that spring born Pudelpointer or did you decided to get a Deutsch Drahthaar?

I hunted all over John Day river and Deschutes river but all I could find was Hungarian partridge and French Red leggs along with a few chukars and quail. Northern Nevada and Southeast Oregon was much better, limited out everyday.

Bill,

My experience with WPGs probably goes as far back as anyone's here. They are a hardy breed with no stop in them. They have an undercoat and webbed feet, so they're good water dogs. They can have great noses, and they point naturally. Getting them to retrieve is sometimes a little bit of work; they'ed rather be moving and finding birds.

They are strong dogs, and dense cover doesn't stop them. They can tend to get a bit warm in warmer climates in early fall, but a lot of re-hydration overcomes that.

I grew up with the breed and thought all meals were taken on all fours next to griffons for my first few years of life.

Strong jaw's runs in the family. Good genes.