It looks like my female sarplaninac took a hit to the snout, probably a copperhead. She now has the look of a bull terrier.






Normal face.

I hope she's okay!

Ann,

Do you give your dogs the rattlesnake vaccine, not sure if it even works for copperheads but I think it helped one of mine to overcome a rattlesnake bite.


Hope she is okay, good looking dogs.

Byron

You're very lucky that your dog has the chance to survive.

Here in Aus most snake bites to dogs end up being fatal.

Last year a good buddy of mine actually witnessed his dog being bit by a brown snake.
Luckily they managed to muster up a Vet, out of hours, and the dog survived after an ordeal of treatment, including going through the anti-venine. The dog is now still living but the venom reached one side of the brain and the dog now suffers from anxiety and will not leave the home.

Hope your dog recovers fully, they mean way too much to us.

Anne, are you sure your sweet girl didn't get a nose full of wasps? I hope she recovers 100 percent.
The vaccine that I believe BigB is referring to would be the one produced by Red Rock Biologics. It is somewhat controversial among vets, and is expressly designed to help stimulate the formation of antibodies to the venom of the Western diamondback. A vet friend in central Oregon swears by it for bites by the Northern Pacific rattlesnake as well.

It took three days for her to get back to normal. There are a lot of copperheads around my place. Could it have been hornets/wasps? Perhaps! She is fine now.

Red Rock Biologics is the injection my dogs are given at the Vet.

I was just curious if the vaccine worked for others as it appears it worked for my dog. She was bitten and only got 1 vial of antivenom and was back on her feet in a couple of days.

Byron, was your dog bitten by a rattlesnake or a different species?

Rattlesnake in Arizona, I think a Western Diamondback got bit in rear leg.

Ah. Much worse than a copperhead. Yes, antivenin would be needed in the case of a rattlesnake bite.

Ann, so glad your sweet pup came around so quickly. Just in case it was bees or wasps, you might want to keep some Benadryl handy. Bounce it off your vet, but I believe it works for dogs about the way it does for humans. I was told to give one to our little Javanese mutt after he got stung on the nose by a honey bee. He still had to go in to see the vet, though, as he was in mild anaphylactic shock, the poor toot.
I try to keep some handy for me, too. My last sting, by a yellowjacket, caused a welt that did not go down for days and itched fiercely. I am hoping I am not getting closer to the stage where I need an Epipen, but my understanding is that anyone at any time can become sensitized to bee and wasp stings and not know the change has occurred.

Byron, that is exactly the result I have heard of involving dogs bitten by Western diamondbacks that have had the Red Rock vaccine.

I have never heard of a copperhead bite being fatal to a dog. Usually just swelling for a few days then good to go.

.

Usually any of the crotalus genus are not fatal to a dog. Swells the head (that is almost always where they are bit).I have noticed that the local vets are pushing a pre bite vacine for dos;not sure how that works. I have heard that there is a seriously low amount of crotalus antivenin available for humans.

A lot of vets here in Alabama are pushing the vaccine. I however, do not. The "vaccine" is made from Western DBack which we don't have here, and still require treatment. From what I have read, there is essentially no trials that support its efficacy. None of the criticalists I trained under recommend it.

Could it potentially have some cross protection to the Eastern? Yeah, it could. Could it be effective? Maybe. Have I wasted $20-$30 bucks on worse? Yeah.

I practice in a low income area. Antivenin is not an option here for 99% of my clients. I don't carry it. I have lost 1 dog in approximately 50 snakebites. It presented after an unknown amount of time since the bite, and was in DIC. I ended up euthanizing it.

I have a colleague in South GA that uses antivenin and loses about 60% with very intensive care. I can't explain why.

Thanks for your input from someone in the 'industry'.

Just my experiences. I would say the majority of my bites are mostly Agkistridons, of which the Crotalus antivenin would do no good. Of those I'd say maybe 30% are dry bites.

I killed about a 5' timber rattler that nailed both of my aunt's Norwegian Elkhounds. Swelling and a little tissue necrosis but they did fine. The stubborn male got hit and went back for seconds.

By the way, those Sarplaninacs are gorgeous! I have never seen or heard of one before.

I as well have never heard of Sarplaniacs.Are you speaking of the Norwegian Elkhounds? I had a Borzoi years ago;fine dog.Pics perhaps?Thanks in advance.R.

Yes, my aunt and uncle rescued one back in the late 70s. They have since had about ten more. I do have pictures, but I an unsure of how to post now that photobucket is not allowing third party hosting.

Some other time perhaps. My Borzoi,C.J. was a great dog. We took him down to Houston to breed a Borzoi bitch + their mating habits were interesting to say the least. They just ran + ran,chasing each other + ran some more.They just did'nt tire out.Why the Russians bred them to outrun + overtake the Steppen wolves. They even used the wolves strategy to work as a pack + pick them off one by one.Amazing animal.About 40 years ago when I was in Taylor Texas I passed 2 old black gents in a 1950 pickup w/ 2 Borzois in the back + the entire side of the truck was festooned with hanging rabbits that they had harvested. That would have been fun to watch.

Model7, Red Rock Biologics would do itself a favor if it submitted its Western diamondback vaccine for rigorous testing. Even here in W.D. country, evidence is anecdotal.

Several years ago I went on an alligator bow hunt down at Aransas Pass Wildlife Reserve as the water had risen + alligators were going over the levees + getting into areas that Parks + Wildlife did'nt want them.We were told that if we say any diamondbacks to leave them alone as they were endangered. I thought to myself if I see one he will be endangered sure enough.

I agree bill. If science says it is efficacious, I will promote and recommend it.

With antivenin, it is indicated in instances where clotting times are prolonged. I routinely run PT/aPTT clotting test on snakebites, and all have been just outside of the reference interval. So in theory, I haven't seen a case that antivenin was indicated.

A friend live in a snake infested part of Botswana..he has lost several dogs to cape cobras, mambas and whatever...hard to keep a dog down there..

quote:

Originally posted by model7LSS:
A lot of vets here in Alabama are pushing the vaccine. I however, do not. The "vaccine" is made from Western DBack which we don't have here, and still require treatment. From what I have read, there is essentially no trials that support its efficacy. None of the criticalists I trained under recommend it.

Could it potentially have some cross protection to the Eastern? Yeah, it could. Could it be effective? Maybe. Have I wasted $20-$30 bucks on worse? Yeah.

I practice in a low income area. Antivenin is not an option here for 99% of my clients. I don't carry it. I have lost 1 dog in approximately 50 snakebites. It presented after an unknown amount of time since the bite, and was in DIC. I ended up euthanizing it.

I have a colleague in South GA that uses antivenin and loses about 60% with very intensive care. I can't explain why.

I am knocking on wood as I write this because I have never had a dog bitten by a rattlesnake. But all of us who hunt in the West - and many other areas of the country - are exposed to rattlesnakes. While I do not worry much about the threat to me, I am concerned about the menace they pose to my bird dogs when hunting and even when trialing. Thousands of dogs are bitten every year and I have had a few close calls.

Rattlesnakes carry a hemotoxic venom that attacks the blood and causes swelling, intense pain, and tissue damage. They can kill a dog in some cases. Other rattlers may also carry a neurotoxin in their venom that attacks the nervous system, which is very dangerous and can cause death by respiratory failure. The Mojave green rattlesnake and the banded rock rattler are two neurotoxic species that are native to the Southwest.

Here are three things that I have done to reduce the threat snakes pose to my dogs...

1. Snake avoidance training - done with a live rattler by someone who has experience, avoidance training will definitely help reduce direct confrontations between bird dog and rattler. But this alone does not snake proof a dog because a dog can still be struck by a snake, there is always the potential for a 'drive-by' snake bite.

2. Antihistamines can reduce the reaction to a bite. I carry preloaded syringes of Benedryl (premeasured for each dog) in aluminum cigar tubes in my hunting vest. If a dog is struck, I can immediately start a remedial response to help reduce reaction and buy some time for the dog. Most vets will provide these if you explain your need.

3. The last defense is somewhat controversial. I have used the rattlesnake vaccine by Red Rock Biologics on 4 of my dogs. I have heard objections from vets (including my own) who question the safety and efficacy of this vaccine. With the exception of Jesse, none of these dogs has had the slightest negative reaction to the vaccine. Jesse's muzzle began to swell rapidly within an hour of receiving the vaccine, and I gave him a shot of Benedryl. Within about 2 hours the swelling was nearly gone, and he recovered fully within 24 hours. He has not received any additional vaccine.

According to Red Rock Biologics, "This vaccine works extremely well at getting dogs to generate protective antibody against rattlesnake venom. These protective antibodies start neutralizing venom immediately. This means that vaccinated dogs experience less pain and have a reduced risk of permanent injury from rattlesnake bite. Veterinarians typically report that such dogs experience less swelling, less tissue damage and a faster recovery from snakebite than unvaccinated dogs.

Factors which may influence antibody effectiveness against venomous snakebite include: the type of snake, location of bite and amount of venom injected; how well the dog has responded to the vaccine and the length of time since the last dose of vaccine was given to the dog.

This rattlesnake vaccine was developed to protect against Western Diamondback Rattlesnake venom. It is most effective against this snake's venom. Venom from many other snakes found throughout the United States is similar to the venom of the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake. Because of these similarities, this vaccine also provides protection against the venoms of the Western Rattlesnake (including the Prairie, Great Basin, Northern and Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes), Sidewinder, Timber Rattlesnake, Massasauga and the Copperhead. This vaccine provides partial protection against the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake. This vaccine does not provide protection against the Water Moccasin (Cottonmouth), Mojave Rattlesnake or Coral Snakes. Red Rock Biologics is developing a variety of vaccines to provide the best protection against poisonous snakes for dogs in each part of the country."

While some do question its effectiveness, there is much anecdotal evidence that it substantially reduces reaction to a rattlesnake bite. My feeling is this; if it buys me time to get my dog to a vet for treatment, I will use it. If your vet does not have the vaccine, it is available in trays of a dozen (I think) doses from distributors, and single doses may the ordered by your vet directly from Red Rock Biologics. Cost is about $30 to $50 per dose at your vet.

Rattlesnake strikes are always an emergency, and the dog should taken to a vet immediately. But we are often many long miles from a vet, and additional time bought by the use of antihistamines and vaccine increases the likelyhood of survival without crippling after effects.

Lucky it was a copperhead and not an eastern diamondback.

I remember reading an article where some guy had a process of "snake proofing" dogs. It did require you have your own rattlesnake though!

Glad the dog turned out okay. She is probably snake proofed after that episode.

BH63

Ranching around here we've never had a dog
snake bit. Dad had yearling colt and two calves around a year old get stung on the noses.

All I believe he did was shove some garden hose up their nostrils. I don't recall him saying anything about a vet.

55yrs ago today in fact. I married a country girl that had been bitten twice about 9 months apart. The first time was by a 6" wrapped around a squash. they finished picking, all went to the house and took a shower. Then leisurely drove 25 miles to town. Hosp refused to treat her due to no insurance. By then she was in trouble. Across town the other hosp. took her right in and she was allergic to the antivenom. She nearly died, spent ten days in the hosp. Fang marks were 1/4" apart on the ring finger.

The second time. She stepped across a row of flowers almost on top a 5' and got one fang in a big toe, the other into the rubber of her flip flops. The vet happened to be there treating a cow. The girl screamed and her Dad said: "one of the girls just got into a snake". He ran to get the girl in the car and the vet jumped in with his snake bite kit. They were at the hosp. 25 miles away in just about 20 minutes. She stayed over night. I met her while she still had a bandaid on the toe.

We married a year or so later and she'd wake me up having nightmares just beating the hell out of me.

I've been fighting paper wasps for 40 years and just can't get rid of 'em. I've been stung several times just about every summer. The last 4 years or so I've had bad reactions to it. Hand swells up to 4" thick, forearm big as my thigh almost.

Since the first time of having a a reaction I take a handful of Benadryl and get to the ER for an injection. Usually they send me home in less than two hours. First time I went in the next day in trouble, spent half the night in there with three injections. It's nothing to fool with once you start having reactions, get to an ER soon as, solutions happen much quicker.

Memorial Day '97 I stepped on a rattler. Never knew I could jump that high and far. Turned out it was cold enough the snake never moved. My boot heal print was on it's head.

All these snakes are prairie rattlers, just about all we have here. One time elk hunting at 9500' I saw a dead timber rattler laying in the road. So they are up that high. I'd of never believed it til I saw that one and stopped to ID it.

Be safe folks,

George

Will add that I've also seen rattlesnakes above 9000 feet above Durango, Co were I used to live. Not uncommon on South and West facing slopes.