Does anyone have any experience with rattlesnake vaccines?

You might check with your local hospitals concerning availability of antivenin. 2 years ago here in central Texas, the word went out as a public notice that there was a shortage. The word was just don't get bit. That is for people, I don't know how well the vets are fixed, but I do know that dogs generally get bit in the face, (I have had several that this happened to + they all recovered). They swell up, but after a few days are alright again. I'm not saying to just take it lightly, but a dog's recovery rate is pretty good.

I am very familiar with antivenin, I just don't know much about the canine vaccination. Everything on the internet just parrots one another, likely pharmaceutical propaganda.

I've never seen a rattlesnake on my land but know they are here. I do have copperheads which do not bother me one bit. They are perfect mousers. I had a dog who no matter how many times he was bitten would grab and eventually kill any he found. His face would look like someone blew it up like a glove filled with air. While copperhead venom won't kill a dog he never learned, I am sure that was a painful lesson. Not a smart dog.

Last I heard, the "vaccine" was made from western diamondback venom. None of the clinicians I trained under recommended it because we don't have westerns here, only easterns. Could the vaccine provide some cross protection? Possibly, but the company that makes the vaccine won't allow it to be tested to prove efficacy. In the event a dog is bitten, it still needs to be seen to treat the snake bite. I don't think the vaccine is very expensive so it could be worth it, but I have a hard time pushing a product that has no safety and efficacy data to support it.

Run this by Jerry Dollar, he was in CAL with a nest under the house. might be he has experience.

Lane Easter could too.
We have only had humans and cattle get hit, never a dog in a very rattlesnake infested ranch country. Might be just smarter than normal dogs.

I know my first wife had gotten bit twice in 9 months. First time they about lost her as she was allergic to the horse serum used.

George

Red Rock Biologics developed their Western diamondback-specific vaccine 20 years ago and it remains controversial. One study in 2014 found it had no statistically meaningful effect. But iI have spoken with a number of our vets over the years and some have absolutely insisted that vaccinated dogs will recover from bites sooner, with less antivenin administered and with less tissue damage.
I think if I ever had a bird dog again and planned to hunt in snake country, I would invest in the vaccine and in snake avoidance training.
I'll never forget the sight of an elderly chukar hunter in Eastern Oregon carrying his dead Brittany -- with tears in his eyes. It was a promising young pup that he was incredibly fond and proud of and it had been bitten far from a two-track in the Malheur River basalt canyon country where Oregon chukars thrive.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Run this by Jerry Dollar, he was in CAL with a nest under the house. might be he has experience.

Lane Easter could too.
We have only had humans and cattle get hit, never a dog in a very rattlesnake infested ranch country. Might be just smarter than normal dogs.

I know my first wife had gotten bit twice in 9 months. First time they about lost her as she was allergic to the horse serum used.

George

When I lived in CA I had 4 dogs bitten by western diamondbacks, plus myself. After the first 2 bites, I vaccinated all my dogs. The next 2 snake bites required less antivenin. I was told by my vet to think of the vaccine as a single dose of antivenin plus it buys time to get to the vet for additional treatment. BTW the antivenin is VERY expensive, as in $800-900/dose- in about 2012-14. God only know how much it is now. The mainstay of early treatment is Benadryl and Predisone, an oral steroidal anti inflammatory. Get both of them into your dog ASAP! I kept a supply in my house. I considered the vaccine as cheap insurance. BTW, when I got nailed I completely forget the drugs in my rush to get to the hospital. Stupid me. I required 18 vials of antivenin at $3500/vial, 2 days in ICU, and 2 more days in a regular room!

Copperheads perfect mousers--probably 2-3 a month, that will control mice?

FWIW:

I live in North Central Arizona where we have lots of rattlesnakes, represented mostly by the Diamondback, the Arizona Black and the Mojave Green. My vet and her associates strongly recommend the vaccine, but state clearly it will have no effect in the case of a Mojave Green bite. Mojave venom is mostly neurotoxic, and far more toxic than the others. Nor will the vaccine help with necrosis.

Anyway, the vets here in Yavapai County treat lots of bites each season. They almost all recommend the vaccine, which is inexpensive. It requires a booster each March.

They also say, as J Dollar has mentioned, that it's important to get 1mg of benadryl per pound of the dog's weight into your dog as soon as possible. If you can also get prednisone, that's even better.

As an aside, if your dog is hit in the face near the nose, or in the throat, you must be diligent and make sure the dog's airway remains open. More than one dog--and horse--has died from suffocation as a result of a venomous snake bit.

Thanks Jerry:
First time I've been back here since posting that.

Where did you get bit? I've heard its one hell of a trip.

Dad had a few calves and a couple cows bit on the nose. I don't recall him ever losing one.

He did keep a few short pieces of garden hose handy to stuff up their noses to keep the airways open.

Good discussion, keep it going.

George

Interestingly, the Mojave is a bit of a shape-shifter when it comes to whether or not its venom is primarily hemotoxic or neurotoxic. The herpetologists and geneticists are still trying to figure out how this can be.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/r.../01/190115162345.htm

Very interesting article, hope whoever gets bit
has a up to date Doctor, that can treat accordingly. Rattlesnakes are bad enough, let alone the same species having 2 different kind of venoms

Had my dogs get bitten more than a few times trying to kill a snake, and my cattle, horses, and mules, as they are grazers and get bitten on the nose or face,

As said above run a piece of garden hose up their nostrils to keep them from suffocating due to swelling.

It is not necessarily targeted at dogs, but there is a free phone app called Snakebite911 that you can download. If someone experiences a bite, you connect to this outfit and they will immediately alert EMS and local hospitals that a snakebite patient may be incoming. They will also help you identify the actual snake that bit.
This network was developed by the folks that developed Cro-Fab, the currently preferred antivenin for human use in the case of Crotalus envenomation. I don't think it would help with either a coral snake bite or a Mojave bite where that snake primarily produces the neurotic venom.

Vets I've spoken with in TX told me that they still treat the bite, but haven't lost a vaccinated dog yet. They reported no negative side effects.
I have Timber Rattlers in my area and elected to vaccinate my dogs after loosing one to a bite several years back. If it buys the dog even a .1% better chance at survival, I feel it was money well spent.
Knock wood, I'll never have another one bitten.

I get my Labrador vaccinated annually and this thread is a good reminder that I need to get him in for it still.

Every bit as important is aversion training. I try to take him for a session at least every other year. It works, as we see a few rattlers on our walks and so far he has stayed away from them. A few years ago, he walked past a big rattler, giving it a wide berth. Then he sat a bit away and watched while I killed the rattler with a few rocks. It got to be a bit of a rodeo as my first few throws missed it, but my dog had no interest in joining in. Interestingly, he goes right up to Gopher Snakes and smells them. When I told the aversion training people this, they informed me that rattlers smell different. Sure enough, when they walked him up on a muzzled rattler, he jumped back and headed away as soon as he caught its scent.

DLS: Good a few good whiffs of "hot" western diamondbacks at the recent "Rattlesnake Roundup" here in Sweetwater.

Several years ago, I bought my ex-wife a pair of rattlesnake earrings. Pretty attractive, they had a hoop for pierced ears with a silver clasp holding an exposed rattle. She made the mistake ONE time of wearing them when she got on her horse.

Wow, long time since this was up n going.

A couple months ago a fellow at Pueblo West went out for the paper and got bit. He was allergic to the antivenom.
Not far from the ER. 40+ vials. Parkview Hosp. charged $40,000 per vial!! $1.7 mil. His insurance agreed to pay it.

After shoulder surgery I went to their pharmacy to pick up 30 pain pills. I was told the bill was $85. "fk too! I will get them else where"

Dr. called it in, I paid for them: $1 per pill!

Shows how much PVH gouges folks.

George

Damn, I guess the $3000/vial I got charged for the 18 vials I needed was a bargain!