What breed would be the best for grouse hunting?
The dog would have to be a very close working, not afraid to pound the brush, and a good retriever.
I am aware that most every breed has been used for grouse but I'm trying to find the best breed for grouse. I'm going to nominate The Clumber spaniel. Clumbers are close working and very thorough dogs they don't cover ground very fast but that's ok because I can't cover ground that fast either. The only clumber that I hunted over was not phased by even the thickest cover. They are close to the ground and seem to get around in the brush quite well.
Any other suggestions?

I use a Small Munsterlander for grouse and all other upland birds as well as some water fowl hunting. Excellent noses, close working (if trained that way)and wonderful family pets.

Check out the SNCA site. http://www.smallmunsterlander.org/

Here is my male.



465H&H

Any dog with a lot of nose, caution, point and manners on game will be a good grouse dog. Some run bigger than others, but that is a personal style thing...what you're comfortable with.

Big running pointers in the grouse woods don't seem to work very well if you can't see them point. I feel that a close working pointer would be far better. What pointing breed instinctively works close? I'm curious as to what breed serious grouse hunters feel is the best and why.

"MY" Pointing labs......

I'll probably get some disagreement here but IMO how close your dog works depends on how you train it.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I'll probably get some disagreement here but IMO how close your dog works depends on how you train it.

465H&H

Mostly true....BTW, good looking Munsterlander...kinda looks like a "spotted lab"

Training plays a HUGE part in how close/far the dogs work... I do believe some breeds are more naturally close hunting and/or big range hunters.

As JonP says...."get the dog you want"...they all can be good bird dogs....

Buy them, love them, and hunt them....

I used to consider this question quite a bit when I lived in an area of the country that had a large Ruffed Grouse population. I have shot far more grouse over my big running pointer than any other dog, but that's due to the fact that he's the dog I hunted with. I wouldn't suggest a big running pointer for grouse, but if you are in good shape and enjoy a fast paced hunt you may consider it. I think it comes down to less of a breed issue and more of the weight falls on the individual dogs ability to handle grouse. If I was looking for a pointing dog for grouse, I'd be looking hard at llewelin setters or looking at a close to medium ranging line of GSP's. I think it takes a methodical dog that hunts with its head as well as its nose to make a grouse dog. I don't mind that a dog covers ground in the grouse woods as long as it isn't bumping birds and checks up frequently, 200 yards is about the furthest I'd want a dog ranging and probably less than that if I'm in an absolute jungle. My pointer would adjust his range depending on the terrain we were in, but still ranged too far for my taste for grouse. If I were buying a pointing grouse dog right now, today, I'd buy a llewelin as I feel that grouse is their specialty and their modern breeding has been geared towards grouse more so than any of the other breeds of pointers and setters. There are lines of pointers and setters that have been taylored towards grouse hunting, but as a whole, the llewelins have been more fine tuned for that specialty.

If you want to use a flushing breed for grouse I think that you have more viable options and chance of ending up with a sho 'nuff grouse dog. I haven't ever owned a spaniel, but have hunted over several springers, a cocker and a boykin. They were all enjoyable to hunt over but I'll have to give my nod to the boykin in overall effectiveness....the individual dog was a damn good waterfowl retriever too. That said, I haven't ever hunted over a spaniel that, on its best day, was any better than a lab. They may be more animated or whatever that term is that spaniel folks use to add merit to their choice, but.....whatever? I'll concede they are "as good". Finding a well bred lab is going to be easier to do than a well bred spaniel, just look at the number of hunting/field trial labs compared to hunting spaniel breeders. I wouldn't even know where to start looking for a Clumber spaniel from hunting breeding rather than a show breeding, even if I did find ONE, what would I be able to base my decision on if there isn't anything to compare it to.

The last time I went grouse hunting was with my current lab who was never trained to hunt upland birds since all she hunts is waterfowl and doggie treats.... She picked it right up as soon as the tailgate dropped. I could not wipe the smile off of my face, laughing by myself several times at how enjoyable it was to hunt over her at my own leisurely pace, after the years of chasing my pointer all over the countryside. To me anyways, THAT is what grouse hunting is all about. I can stalk through the woods at my own pace, in tune with my surroundings, the dog working as a partner with no bells or beeper collars to distract from the hunt. I forget who said it, but you hunt grouse for sport the first time......revenge thereafter. I agree!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I'll probably get some disagreement here but IMO how close your dog works depends on how you train it.

465H&H

I'll disagree with that. Each dog has its own natural range and will hunt at that range regardless of training. That is where dog handling comes in. A big running pointer with a good handle on him can be hunted in close if you have the notion to constantly reel them back in. I find that to detract from the hunt. It's probably just semantics, but you don't train a dog to range a certain distance, you handle a dog to hunt a certain range.....remove the handling and the dog will return to hunting its natural range. No amount of training will make my pointer run 40 yard figure 8's in front of the gun, nor will my lab take half mile casts down the edge of a field.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan27:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I'll probably get some disagreement here but IMO how close your dog works depends on how you train it.

465H&H

I'll disagree with that. Each dog has its own natural range and will hunt at that range regardless of training. That is where dog handling comes in. A big running pointer with a good handle on him can be hunted in close if you have the notion to constantly reel them back in. I find that to detract from the hunt. It's probably just semantics, but you don't train a dog to range a certain distance, you handle a dog to hunt a certain range.....remove the handling and the dog will return to hunting its natural range. No amount of training will make my pointer run 40 yard figure 8's in front of the gun, nor will my lab take half mile casts down the edge of a field.

I feel that is much better to work with a dogs instinct rather than against it. I look at it from a slightly different angle than someone who trials or hunts pen birds a lot. You should never have to train a dog to hunt the "hunt" should be all instinct from good breeding. All you should have to train is control (sit,come,stay ect..).I hunt every thing that has wings with my springers and they do very well but because of where I live I do quite a bit of grouse hunting for ruffs blues and franklins. I have hunted grouse with every dog that I have owned labs.chessies.springers and even my blue heeler and all have done ok but I have been thinking of what breed would be THE grouse dog. I'm not a big pointer fan but if a breed is designed to work close I think that it would be easier to get into a shooting position. Getting a shot with a hard flusher like a springer can be a challenge in the thick stuff. I haven't spent any time around llewelins but it's good to hear that they have been geared twords grouse hunting.
Out of all the spaniel breeds the clumber is the most rare. However there are a few breeders that raise good hunting lines and there is a small but active group of enthusiasts dedicated to the breed. From my very limited experience with clumbers they are quite leisurely to hunt behind which appeals to me more and more as I get older.
Thanks for your input an I hope that you get some sweet revenge soon.

P.S If you think that your labs are better than My springers all that I can say is that your badly mistaken!

As JonP says...."get the dog you want"...they all can be good bird dogs....

Buy them, love them, and hunt them.... [/QUOTE]
The only thing that gets more opinions than what's the best bird dog is what's the best fire arm. And we all know what opinions are like.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan27:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I'll probably get some disagreement here but IMO how close your dog works depends on how you train it.

465H&H

I'll disagree with that. Each dog has its own natural range and will hunt at that range regardless of training. That is where dog handling comes in. A big running pointer with a good handle on him can be hunted in close if you have the notion to constantly reel them back in. I find that to detract from the hunt. It's probably just semantics, but you don't train a dog to range a certain distance, you handle a dog to hunt a certain range.....remove the handling and the dog will return to hunting its natural range. No amount of training will make my pointer run 40 yard figure 8's in front of the gun, nor will my lab take half mile casts down the edge of a field.

Bryan27,
It is probably a matter of semantics, but you have to train the dog to "reel in'. That is what I was saying.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I use a Small Munsterlander for grouse and all other upland birds as well as some water fowl hunting. Excellent noses, close working (if trained that way)and wonderful family pets.

Check out the SNCA site. http://www.smallmunsterlander.org/

Here is my male.



465H&H

I just realized that I may have given you a false impression of what a Small Munsterlander looks like. In the above picture my dog has been trimmed for hot weather hunting. Here is a pic of him in full plumage.
465H&H

Nice dog 465HH! what is a Munsterlander?

I hunted for years over pointing dogs that won in field trials. Horseback field trials. The best dog I had for banding woodcock was a trail dog that though nothing of biting of two mile casts out in the open. I am 62 years old and have a dog now that may be able to handle horseback all age trials and definitely will handle shooting dog stakes.

If you properly develop a dog with plenty of grouse work they'll handle them fine. No matter how much ground they cover or how long it takes to catch up to the point. The more ground the dog covers the less you have to. As far as I am concerned a dog that can't handle everything within 1/4 mile of me is going to be eating someone else' dog food.

The only problem is trying to handle two all age dogs at once in grouse woods. Two kennel mates can be extremely competitive and will be pushing each other so hard and fast you can't keep up. I could manage two shooting dog class animals together, or one all age and one shooting dog, but almost always had more trouble than I could handle with two big going dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
Nice dog 465HH! what is a Munsterlander?

It is an old German breed. They are close to medium range pointers. Check out the Small Munsterlander site at http://www.smallmunsterlander.org/

There is also a Large Munsterlandser breed.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:

P.S If you think that your labs are better than My springers all that I can say is that your badly mistaken!

Shoot, We'd be pullin' our limit off the smoker while you're still pluckin' burrs!

I wouldn't call labs better than springers, in general, but I could make a strong arguement for that stance. I'd venture to guess more birds are shot over labs each year than all the spaniels combined....and then some.

I had a golden when I was a kid, my first hunting dog. Meanest, scrappiest dog I've ever been around, but she HATED a pheasant, couldn't stand'em, didn't want them to breath her air, wanted all of'em dead if she had her way. Couldn't ask for a better dog in the field. But when the hunt was over it took FOREVER to get the burrs, tangled hair and mud out. My pointer is clean before we'd pull in the driveway and my lab would just take a couple squirts with the hose. Never again would I have a silky haired dog.

I've owned a variety of bird dogs over the years and i've come to the conclusion that GSP's are the best, provided they are not close to field trial stock. The trial dogs are scored on birds found, not bagged and most generally scored on horseback.
A GSP from the foundation breeding is something to behold, they may chase a rabbit or catch one but they won't come back with a scrotum(spf.)full of soiled genes and they won't have a bunchel or ever you spell it, but you won't have to spend half the night removing the burrs

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bryan27:

I wouldn't call labs better than springers, in general, but I could make a strong arguement for that stance. I'd venture to guess more birds are shot over labs each year than all the spaniels combined....and then some.

The reason that more birds are shot over labs is because labs are like assholes everyone has one!

My springers are definably burr magnets but that goes with the territory. Labs and springers are great all purpose dogs but they are not necessarily the best grouse dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
What breed would be the best for grouse hunting?
The dog would have to be a very close working, not afraid to pound the brush, and a good retriever.

One of the Brittany pups from our litter!

Both parents are great hunters with very good noses and LOTS of hunting drive and instinct. Many Champions in their bloodlines.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1666

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1665

quote:

Originally posted by The Shottist:

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
What breed would be the best for grouse hunting?
The dog would have to be a very close working, not afraid to pound the brush, and a good retriever.

One of the Brittany pups from our litter!

Both parents are great hunters with very good noses and LOTS of hunting drive and instinct. Many Champions in their bloodlines.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1666

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=1665

I agree that a Brittany would be a good choice too. Never hunted over a Brittany that I didn't like! They make excellent grouse/woodcock dogs, imo.

Have you checked into the French breeds?

How about the Braque du Bourbonnais which is one of the foundation breed for Britteny spaniel.

Better yet, how about a Braque Francais?

Be sure to check for Hip scores or rating through Penn Hip.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
Have you checked into the French breeds?

How about the Braque du Bourbonnais which is one of the foundation breed for Britteny spaniel.

Better yet, how about a Braque Francais?

Be sure to check for Hip scores or rating through Penn Hip.

I don't trust dogs without tails!

465H&H

I do not think there is a "Best" dog for anything.

The "Best" dog is always "your" dog!

Take a look at Drahthaars as a possible breed you might enjoy.

whatever you decide on get a pup out of a proven grouse hunting sire and dam.

My vote would be for a Llewellin Setter; but I am biased.

quote:

If you properly develop a dog with plenty of grouse work they'll handle them fine. No matter how much ground they cover or how long it takes to catch up to the point.

I agree...but I also think its just easier to get a dog bred for the style of the hunting you intend to do. I like horsepower but I also know that putting genetic horsepower back "in the bottle" is not within the capability of many owners. If you need a "truck", its usually better if you just get a truck....you can make a Ferrari into a truck but why?

I always had Brittanys because they make great pets and hunting dogs also. BUT I have a Llewellin Setter that is doing great on Grouse right now.

I think I need a Brittany and a Llewellin at the same time then I would be content. Yeah thats it.

God Bless, Louis

The American Water Spaniel-as pictured at top of page!!!

I prefer the American Water Spaniel over the English/Brittany/Cocker spaniel for a close working/retrieving grouse/ptarmigan dog.
Americans don't have the hip problems as the others & don't get muscle bound either from a long day at work.
Americans aren't as high strung either & mellow around children.

Like Dan I've hunted alot of grouse over an AWS and have a soft spot for them. My last one hunter everything from grouse/woodcock/ pheasant and did yoeman service as a retriever on doves/ducks even sea doucks here on the coast.

If I were looking for a pure grouse dog I'd take a serious look at a field bred English Cocker. As an AKC performance judge I'm always impressed with the work the little guys can put out.

As a quirk of fate I inherrited a 4 yr old GWP that is showing promise as an all around hunting companion but it would never be my first choice. Much harder to train than my spaniels, seems to take alot longer for them to fiqure out what I want.

375win

I bought a dog from a kennle famous for Grouse hunting (Decoverly) and have been more than pleased. I live in Texas and primarily hunt Bobs, but have hunted 11 states with her in the last 2 years. She busted the first Mn grouse she came upon, but not another for 4 days. She works close in close cover and will get out a bit in open country like New Mexico. I could have bought just about any breeed of upland dog, but I chose a kennel that has a 100 yr history of producing Dogs that HUNT and are great companions.

I too am possibly, merely possibly, biased but I would say Gordon Setters. It might be different ground from what they were originally bred for but they worked wonderfully for the purpose in the mountains of NE Washington.

I have used several breeds over the last 40 years with varing results but have settled on english setters, the last four of which I still have three have been outstanding, blood is a mix of field champions and good foot hunting stock.They typically adjust to the cover and can easily be brought in if too wide. Hunting too wide here is the result of the lack of birds can't fault the dog for doing what he was bred to do. My best advice is make sure parents are from grouse hunting stock and your right barrel is cylinder bored, good luck.

To many folks are lead to believe that a GSP are just to big in the run to make a good grouse dog but I know better and those that have been around the sport do also. I have a couple GSP dogs that can hunt grouse, track deer, go retrieve ducks and will hunt rabbits too. These couple of dogs hunt close to medium and are not as fast in the field as some of our other dogs.

Dogs are like people, a complex product of breeding,genetics, and training. To say one breed is better than anotherm at something is a generalization similiar to saying "Italians make the best Painters"

quote:

Originally posted by studdog:
Dogs are like people, a complex product of breeding,genetics, and training. To say one breed is better than anotherm at something is a generalization similiar to saying "Italians make the best Painters"

Very well said!

My GSP excelled at grouse. As did her "sister," who was a Boarder Collie [the GSP raised the BC from a pup]. A friends GSP would flounder when hunting the hills Idaho's blue grouse hid/lived in... it seemed to us it was an individual dog, not a breed issue.

Judging by your post, I am not sure what grouse you are speaking of.

Since you live in Flathead maybe your just hunting blue and spruce grouse? Is that right?

A dog for sage grouse and prairie chickens would probably not be the ideal dog for mountain grouse in Western Montana.

I would imagine a fat slow spaniel as you have suggested like the Clumber would be ideal.

If you head out to the other side of the state and chase the big thunder chickens I'd want a dog with more legs.

I like German wirehairs.

at the top of the page is a Boykin Spaniel, nice little pocket flusher, won't tip the pirogue (sp) either... takes hand signals naturally, always checks back... hard to lose in the thick stuff...doesn't like hot weather even though it's the state dog of SC... hunts dead pretty well also. Don't know that I would recommend for grouse woods, but why not?

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Judging by your post, I am not sure what grouse you are speaking of.

Since you live in Flathead maybe your just hunting blue and spruce grouse? Is that right?

A dog for sage grouse and prairie chickens would probably not be the ideal dog for mountain grouse in Western Montana.

I would imagine a fat slow spaniel as you have suggested like the Clumber would be ideal.

If you head out to the other side of the state and chase the big thunder chickens I'd want a dog with more legs.

I like German wirehairs.

I'm talking about mountin grouse ruffs, blues, and franklins (spruce) in heavy timber and steep ground. I've used labs, chessies, springers and even my blue heeler and they all worked ok especially my springers but I was courious as to what others feel would be the best grouse dog breed. I love my springers for any thing that flies in any conditions but in the heavy timber they tend to work to fast and I don't get as many shots because I'm not in position. That 's why I thought a clumber would be good at it, slow and steady, very close working and easyer to keep up with in the steep ground.

quote:

Originally posted by dampatents:
at the top of the page is a Boykin Spaniel, nice little pocket flusher, won't tip the pirogue (sp) either... takes hand signals naturally, always checks back... hard to lose in the thick stuff...doesn't like hot weather even though it's the state dog of SC... hunts dead pretty well also. Don't know that I would recommend for grouse woods, but why not?

The boykin would work fine as would all the other spaniel breeds. You have a great point about size my two springers take up less space than my 125 pound chessie and they don't rock the boat as bad.

I have had a Large Munsterlander for 9 years and she is great on grouse , but I wouldn't say she is any better or worse than my neighbors GSP. I think that on grouse , experience is the most important factor