Is there a cure....I have a really good shorthair, but he is tough on birds. He really liked to retrieve balls etc. when I got him. He had to be force broke to retrieve birds. He is 3 now, and a good retriever. He really puts the clamp on um though.

quote:

Originally posted by da_sidewinder:
Is there a cure....I have a really good shorthair, but he is tough on birds. He really liked to retrieve balls etc. when I got him. He had to be force broke to retrieve birds. He is 3 now, and a good retriever. He really puts the clamp on um though.

Been a long time since I trained a bird dog, but I recall wrapping the bird in barb wire to get him to think, next time, about clamping down. Another thing I used to do is have them carry (warm) water balloons. When they break in their mouth, they hate it and get lighter. Sometimes, it depends on the dog whether these little excercises carry over into the field retrieving but they did for me a lot of the time.

da_sidewinder,

since your dog is force fetch/retrieve trained, get a wooden dowel with nail's, penetrated all the way or through it's dowel. Then work on the weight of the dowel depending on the weight of the birds that you normally harvest over the dog. Mixed the retrieved with nailed and unnailed dowel through the retreiving training process.

Also try a steel brush wrapped in mutton cloth. This will prick him if he bites too hard.

I would stay away from the barbed wire around a bird. You don't want the bird to put the dog off totally. Next thing he won't be picking up the bird at all.

quote:

Originally posted by wazza:
Also try a steel brush wrapped in mutton cloth. This will prick him if he bites too hard.

I would stay away from the barbed wire around a bird. You don't want the bird to put the dog off totally. Next thing he won't be picking up the bird at all.

I thought it might at first, but had an old trainer recommend it to me. I had one that ate the birds on the way back from retrieve & decided to try it. It worked with him & several others I tried. Never did turn one off to picking up birds. Just a turn or two & you could even file down the sharp points. Whatever works .

Sounds to me like the forced retrieve wasn't done right or was completed. Thet is the normal cure. Don't put anything sharp in your dogs mouth.

Force retreived training has nothing to do with curing hard mouth dogs.

da_sidewinder,

what's the latest?

I'm with Don Fischer on this. Dog wasn't force fetched thoroughly. Start off from "hold" and see how he does.

I've got the same problem with two GSPs. One male one female. Both have been force broke but as mentioned earlier I may not have completed the process. Right now I'm working with them on frozen birds. They don't want to clamp down on a frozen bird.

Migra

NOTHING SHARP!!

Here's what i use to train mine and others that have an aggressive bite.

Buy two wig brushes, the kinds with the steel teeth that have small rounded knobs at the end. Cut off the handles and them super glue them back to back so you have a complete oval of the teeth coming out. Wrap this in a terry towel in a drab color and either sew it together or just duct tape the thing.

It will take a little longer than spikes such as nails but the dog won't bleed and he won't grow afraid of picking it up and bringing it to you.

Forced retrieve had NOTHING to do with it. It's all in the taste and smell and texture, same as you and me. You try not biting down and sinking your teeth into a 2-inch cut of kobe beef.

So who did the force breaking on these dogs? Owners or what? Your dogs have both been force broke and both chomp down. Someone screwed up the force breaking.

Don,

what's force breaking? I assume that perhap's you're writing about force retrieve?

Don, I am the one that broke those dogs using the Delmar Smith method. I broke the male 5 years ago and now he is developing some bad habits and probably needs a tuneup. The female, I broke last summer and I probably didn't finish the job. At the time I thought I had, but come bird season she got progressively worse. She went from retreiving birds at a dead run to chewing them like a piece of bubblegum and spitting them out. That doesn't make for a pleasant day of bird hunting.

Migra

It sounds like you didn't finish. You said your on the frozen bird now? Didn't you use it the first time?

I did use a frozen bird while force breaking. Now I'm planting frozen birds and giving the fetch command.

Migra

Don,

It sounds like you're pretty sure about not finishing the process off correctly. Where should I start the process over from? Hold maybe?

Migra

I think I would. I don't use a hold command but to end result is the same. I put the buck in the dog's mouth, telling it to fetch, and hold it with gentle up pressure from below. I also don't make the dog hold it any longer than necessary to have it just hold it without munching. Then when it'll hold the buck in a still mouth for say 10 sec., I move along to the ear pinch. I don't move along to the frozen bird until the dog goes outside and retrieves the wooden buck perfectly, while on a 20' check cord, everytime. If the dog is not running to the buck, I use a ridding crop and spank the dog out to the buck; don't whack it, just pop it until it get's the buck in it's mouth. When the dog is perfect, I go back to the table and do the frozen bird. Start over from holding all the way thru to the ground outside. Then to a fresh killed bird. You are using a table aren't you? The table put's the dog at a level comfortable for you to work, takes the dogs legs away from it, restrains the dog in certain positions and provides a clear path to the retrieve object as the dog learns to move forward to retrieve. A lot of people poo-paw the training table but it gives you control of the situtation.

quote:

Originally posted by migra:
I did use a frozen bird while force breaking. Now I'm planting frozen birds and giving the fetch command.

Migra

I didn't see this post. Don't plant frozen birds for it, use either a canvas bumber or fresh killed birds. I know that a lot of people use different objects to test the dog. Don't do all that testing, you can untrain a force broke dog. What you want is a dog that retrieves you a dead or crippled bird without munching it. I'm not sure but suspect you'll never shoot a frozen bird for the dog. The frozen bird is used in the second stage of training to keep the dog from munching as it goes to the bird. Go from the training buck, a hardwood dowel or tool handle, to a fresh killed bird and you'll encourage hard mouth. Notice that when the dog first starts taking the buck and the frozen bird with the pinch applied, it clamps down pretty good but not as hard nor as long on the frozen bird as the dowel. By the end of the frozen bird, the dog should know exactly what's expected and be confident enought to simply hold the bird. If the dog clamps on the fresh kill, back up to the frozen again, you didn;'t finish.

Don,

Thanks for the info. Like I said, I broke these dogs based on Delmar Smiths book. I think it's an excellent source. But it's still a book and not all inclusive.

To answer your question, yes I am using a table but it's only 8 feet long. Is this too short?

Migra

I hope not. Thats all mine is. That Delmar book is great. Been a long time since I read it.

Thanks for the info Don and apologies to all for hijacking the thread

As another suggestion I might add building up the hold standard all over again. Start with a paint roller, move to frozen birds, and then fresh killed. My final examine is always a hen pheasent when teaching hold. They are the toughest for any dog to deal with. If he can heel and move without chomping your ready for fetch. A great trick for mouth issues after the dog has been taught hold is a sit nick correction or heeling stick sit correction. It worked with my first MH who I didn't do the best job proofing and developed a habit of chomping when doing multiple retrieves.