I am about halfway thru slowly reading Brian's book "Accuracy & Precision for Long Range Shooting". Second time thru, very slowly.

In it he makes the comparison between the 243 Win with a Berger 105gr at 3000fps, VS a 175gr Berger in a 308 Win at 2600fps at 1000yards. His modeling is consistent in favor of the 243 in terms of hit percentage at all ranges and wind conditions. Both rifle/shooter combinations are with a .5moa projected level.

My question for you experienced 1000 yard competitors (I repeat: competitors VS shooters), how can this be? If his conclusions are close, why aren't top level competitors jumping on this advantage like a Duck on a June bug? He states that, at 1000 yards, the modeled hit percentage is just 42% for the 308, VS 71% for the 243, using a 10" circle.

I await enlightenment...

By far, the most popular caliber in PRS is 6mm. I see others shooting it when I'm competing and when I RO I see it picking up brass at the end of the match. The 6.5 is the next most popular. The .308 still get used and will continue to be used now that we have Tactical and Production classes in PRS.

There's a site that shows the top 1,000 yard shooter results each year, and what caliber they used. It was 6.5 for a bit, but the 6mm is what they're using now.

The competitors absolutely are jumping on this advantage.

Now in PRS I find it to be a fickle market, they follow trends. This is why the 6mm Creedmoor is much more popular than the 243. George at GAP does something, and everyone wants it. Same with 6.5 SAUM.

6.5mm Creedmoor is also very popular because of high quality, well priced factory ammo available.

30 caliber is very rare for competitive finishes, because you are at such a disadvantage for ballistics, and especially recoil. Big advantage to spot your shots and see where you miss, for a quick correction.

ISS - I am not a long range competitor. Nevertheless, I will state the obvious. To get .30 caliber external ballistic performance matching the Berger 6mm bullet leaving a muzzle at 3000 fps you would need to shoot Berger's 185 grain .308 bullet, not the 155 grain, at the same 3000 fps velocity. A .308 Winchester won't do that. You'd need to be shooting something like a .300 WinMag.

As you all can probably tell, I am not up on trends in PRS or Long Range. I just worked on being able to kill Rockchucks farther and farther away. Geovids were like Manna from Heaven.

Recoil considered, it makes perfect sense. I was just ignorant of the current state of the art.

thanks for the enlightenment...

Rich

Yes, 308 is at a disadvantage. People shoot it in local matches because it's just something they have, or they like to have a challenge in the wind to try and learn from it. For friendly competition, it's fun. I've seen guys shoot F-class with 223, but not seriously. For more serious stuff, 308 is either not used, or it is used as a requirement or has its own class. For example, F-class has a 308 category, or matches like the raton sporting rifle match will have a 308 class, like ladies, or senior, etc.

I have never shot a PRS, I am a F-Open, 1000 yard BR, Fly and Bat shooter.

In F-Open the 6mm, 6.5 and 7mm's dominate the game. There are a few guys hooting 300 Wins and 300 WSMs, but not many.

F-Standard/F-TR and fullbore require the use of 223 or 308. There are PSR matches that are 308 only matches.

No one shoots a 308 because they want to. They are forced to because of the competitions they shoot.

thanks.

I have a Bartlein 6.5mm barrel ordered. Going with the 6.5-284 NORMA on their suggestion. Whitley Palma Medium weight, 30" long, with a gain twist, (11-8") left hand twist. I'm going to try and defeat the Coriolis Effect. We are near the 45th parallel.

I wouldn't go with that much difference in the twist...at most guys are shooting a gain twist of 3/4 twist. I have not heard from any shooters that had good results with a large difference in starting/ending twists. Think on an 'X' being formed on every groove on your bullet jacket. The greater the difference in starting and ending twist, the bigger that 'X' will be, especially on those high BC bullets you're going to be shooting. It works phenomenally well with patched roundballs though!!! (almost no bearing surface and the ball is always rotating around it's center)

I spoke with "The Buddha" at Bartlein. He told me to just order the 9" to 8" with the long Berger 140gr Hybrid and be happy.

thanks Matt for your sage advice,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
As you all can probably tell, I am not up on trends in PRS or Long Range. I just worked on being able to kill Rockchucks farther and farther away. Geovids were like Manna from Heaven.Rich

I remember those articles you and Boyd wrote in PS magazine. Always anticipated the next issue drooling about what you guys were thinking up. Miss those times/days!

Me too. Especially the part about having 20:20 vision. It was a pretty good 12 year run for both of us.

He fell from grace when the book sales took off. Bought a little British roadster, moved to Cheyenne, and is racing vintage class on weekends.

On a pd hunt a few years ago myself and a few gunsmiths and barrel makers showed up with everything from 223 Rem to big 300's looking for long rang fun. I had the longest kill at 860 yards with a 6mm-284. I came back with a bunch of 223 rounds but shot every 243 and 6-284 I had. The 6mm's definitely seemed to be the easiest to hit with at extended ranges against even the 6.5-284 and a couple dedicated 30's with a pile of powder behind long Berger bullets.

I am only familiar with NRA Long Range, no F class or PRS(whatever that is?,)but no question the 6.5/284 is a superb long range round as well as other 6mm class rounds. If you can not shoot at minimum Master or High Master scores with a 308 it is unlikely you will shoot at that level with whatever caliber/rifle you select. Prone, sling, micrometer sights, no electronic devices on firing line to read the wind, temp., etc., just you and the rifle and your skill and wits. One of the reasons some shy away from the "sub calibers" is due to barrel wear over a shorter period of shooting time than the 308. With the right loads the 7mm Rem.Mag. and the 300WinMag are excellent long range rounds(long range being from 800-1000yds,) but there is a price to pay in terms of recoil and barrel life. If you are a serious long range competitor it takes 3 rifles, one you are using, one as a backup and one in the shop being fitted with new barrel, budgets do have an impact on the sport. Shot a lot of Palma Matches and required caliber is 308 and shot at 8,9,and 1000yds., prone/sling, micrometer sights only. Rifle was Rem.40X, Krieger 30"/12 twist and shot my best scores with the SMK190's which was not supposed to work very well at 1000yds., but worked good enough for me to reach High Master Long Range.
Have no doubt there are superior calibers out there, but would not discount the 308 for it is an excellent caliber in skilled hands of a match shooter.