Gentlemen,

I've got a heavy barreled Sako 75 Varmint as a dual use target shooting/static shooting rifle that I'm trying to develop a long range load for.

I've got the hunting loads cracked with 125 gr Sierra prohunters shooting to an honest quarter inch for 5 shots at 100 yards ( repeatable on a fairly still day, more difficult in the wind ) and a 150gr Hornady BTSP load that isn't much worse in grouping at all.

The issue is that I've tested these rounds out to 600 yards and they are great, all things considered.

The target shooting load is more problematic as it's main duty is 1000 yard shooting, the rifle shooting surplus 7.62 ammo into the MOA sized bulls of the 600 and below targets very consistently.

At the moment I am using 42.7gr of H4895 under a 155gr SMK in RWS cases set off with a CCI 200LR primer. The OAL is magazine length ( 2.800" ).

This load shoots one ragged hole at 100 yards even in a breeze but at 1000 yards shows vertical stringing. I initially thought I was breaking the occasional shot up but comparing the last few score cars can see that the shots seem to be stringing and also my MPI is higher than I had thought because of it.

Most of my reloading experience has been for hunting and relatively short range loads and so I don't usually chrono long strings, just five to get an average velocity.

It appears that my ES is around 50 fps with this load and the SD not too clever either.

My questions are then:

1.I know I have a fair amount of empty space in the case, could it be that a slower powder with a greater load density is the answer?

2.Should I use bench rest primers in place of the standard ones?

3.I have bought an OAL gauge, should I seat into or very close to the lands?

4. I neck size at the moment, should I go to PL-F sizing, why is this potentially more accurate than just neck sizing as I have been told?

5. Is the RWS brass at fault or should I switch to Lapua or Norma?

6. The 42.7 is the most accurate powder node in that rifle, I can go up to 45.3 and it's accurate, but just not as accurate at 100 yards. If this load chronos out to have a lower ES and SD than the 42.7, might it be more accurate at 1000?

7. Finally any and all pet load data gratefully accepted!

Thanks,

GH

As for pet loads in the 308 for long range match shooting, I used for number of years the following:
155's SMK's, Lapua Brass(the best,) 210M Fed. Primers, bullet seating some 2-.004" from lands and grooves, 46.2grs of IMR 4064. This is in 12 twist Krieger or Douglas barrel 30" in length(Palma if you will)
175's same as above, but with 44.2grs of 4064
190's same as above, but with 42.2grs of 4064
Light wind, used 155's, moderate winds, 175's and gusting/near 10mph, 190's.
Would mention that you can duplicate above loads using Varget and it is a less sensitive powder for temperature variances.

I full length resize all my match loads using Dillon dies and try to keep run out on dial indicator at less than .003" or 1 plus per side.
One thing I don't do and probably should is neck turn my brass for it said by some that more gain is made in accuracy with this step than others??

You mention that the velocity variance is some 50fps and for me that is more than I want at extreme ranges as in 600-1000yds. Try to keep mine in single digits to insure same flight path of bullet.

Ghubert,

I had a similar experience with SMKs.

I have a heavy barrel hunting rifle that does double duty sometimes on targets - Was reloading SGKs for hunting and SMKs for targets. Tickering with these reloads, I was able to get the X-spreads of the SMKs down into the 40s BUT got the X-spreads of the SGKs down into the 20s with single digit SDs.

For me, I just switched to the SGKs for both. This may or may not be the best solution for your situation but I'd suggest at some point you try another bullet for targets.

I think I'm gonna like this forum.....Les

I would try Varget. I shot up to 48.5 grains in my f-class gun and never saw pressure, velocity was good too, over 3000 Fps.

8208 is another option, I shot my buddy's loads for his rifle and they clock almost 3200 Fps from my gun, with 155 grain SMKs.

GH,

If you've done all the testing necessary to settle on your 42.7 gr of H4895, then stay there.

A fantastic 100 yd group does not make a great 600 or 1000 yd group. you've got to get your ES/SD way down. Like 12 or less for SD. That 50 ES is string you up and down at 1000.

You'll want to run a primer test next to determine if their is a primer better suited for your load. Don't just look for accuracy but you need to test for ES/SD. Gather up a bunch of different primers, standard and match grade and load 5 each. Precisely weigh out each powder charge. Make sure each piece of brass is as identical as possible. Not just weight, trimming etc, but also sized, primed, charge and seated all in the same day. Brass, after a while, can take a set or loosen up after time. Also, charging something, say 10 rounds, one day and the others a day/week later can change stuff due to barometric and humidity changes.

Once you determine a great primer buy a bunch, 1000-5000. Then it's off to seating depth.

Each rifle/bullet/powder combo is different. Yo have to test how far off or into the lands your combo likes. Neck sizing is fine. I'm not going to get into it. I FL size, just setting the should back .001"-.002" in a target/tactical match load; .003" in a hunting rifle.

RWS is good stuff. Make sure and segregate your grass into groups is the weight varies. I've run 100 pc of Lapua and it's all the same, within 2 gr. Winchester, about 80% runs with 2 gr and the rest will run as much as +/- 2.5 gr for a 5 gr range.

You'll find some of he most comprehensive 308 data over on Sniperhide.com. Those guys live and breath the 308.

Have fun.

Alan

Ghubert, are you limited to using the lighter Palma style 155 gr bullets for some reason (slow barrel twist or course "Palma" rules)?

If not, I'd try the heavier 175 gr. bullets (like the 175 gr. Sierra MKs.

I've never liked the 155 gr. Sierra MKs for long range (or short range). They were basically designed for one reason..... to meet Palma competition rules (which required the use of 155 gr. ammo).

I have used H-4895 and IMR-4895 powders with the 168gr. Sierra MKs ...... but only out to 600 yds. Very small groups.... but at loadings that were usually about 1.5 - 2.5 grains below max. This resulted in velocities that go sub-sonic at about 850-900 yards and when THAT happened ..... the 168 gr. MKs would do the "crazy chicken" (complete loss of stability).

Varget has several advantages over the 4895 powders. It tends to produce better accuracy at higher velocities. It meters VERY consistantly. And it has better loading density in the .308 case.

Primers? I like Federal LR Match primers. But others might work as well or better.

Seating? I like my RCBS case Mic. It can tell you MANY things about what your rifle likes..... and doesn't like.

IN my experience, it is the powder you are using...

I hate H 4895. of course it may be an availability issue in England for an alternative..

since VitaVourhi powders are available over there, I'd consider using them instead..

how ever if you want to use North American available powders, with that bullet, I'd move to IMRs 4895 or IMR's 4064 like MFD recommended.. you'll find more consistency in those than H4895.

If you prefer ADI/Hodgdon Powders, with that bullet, I'd either consider the use of Varget ( as mentioned) or H 322 which is often overlooked..Benchmark would also be an option..

all offer more across the board consistency than H 4895. I see too many "oddities" show up with that powder.. it'll be a tack driver with a load, then vary it even slightly up or down a tenth of a grain or two, and your groups grow dramatically...

stringing also could just be the harmonics of your barrel... is it free floated? what type of contour do you have on your Sako?

potential trigger adjustment that magnifies the further out you get?

optics? the further out you get your deviation on your point of aim is more noticeable?

lotta factors once you start shooting further out there..

how does it compare to the 600 or 800 meter/yds results?

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
As for pet loads in the 308 for long range match shooting, I used for number of years the following:
155's SMK's, Lapua Brass(the best,) 210M Fed. Primers, bullet seating some 2-.004" from lands and grooves, 46.2grs of IMR 4064. This is in 12 twist Krieger or Douglas barrel 30" in length(Palma if you will)
175's same as above, but with 44.2grs of 4064
190's same as above, but with 42.2grs of 4064
Light wind, used 155's, moderate winds, 175's and gusting/near 10mph, 190's.
Would mention that you can duplicate above loads using Varget and it is a less sensitive powder for temperature variances.

I full length resize all my match loads using Dillon dies and try to keep run out on dial indicator at less than .003" or 1 plus per side.
One thing I don't do and probably should is neck turn my brass for it said by some that more gain is made in accuracy with this step than others??

You mention that the velocity variance is some 50fps and for me that is more than I want at extreme ranges as in 600-1000yds. Try to keep mine in single digits to insure same flight path of bullet.

Thanks MFD, I had stayed away from IMR powders purely because my reloading mentor used Hogdon and Vit powders. I plumped for the Hogdon powders because at the time I was mainly hunting and was seduced by the reported temperature insensitivity.

I take your point about the heavier bullets also but for the purposes of a particular competition I am limited to 155 grains.

I'll work trying different powders to see if I can get the ES down, as you confirm it seems too high.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
Ghubert,

I had a similar experience with SMKs.

I have a heavy barrel hunting rifle that does double duty sometimes on targets - Was reloading SGKs for hunting and SMKs for targets. Tickering with these reloads, I was able to get the X-spreads of the SMKs down into the 40s BUT got the X-spreads of the SGKs down into the 20s with single digit SDs.

For me, I just switched to the SGKs for both. This may or may not be the best solution for your situation but I'd suggest at some point you try another bullet for targets.

Very interesting Ray, thank you. If only I could mate, unfortunately in UK soft point projectiles are classified in the same category as pistols, machine guns and flamethrowers, hunters have an exemption in law to be able to acquire and use them but they are not permitted for target shooting and you are limited in how many you can acquire and possess at one time.... A crappy situation in many other ways also, but for this purpose a no-no.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
I would try Varget. I shot up to 48.5 grains in my f-class gun and never saw pressure, velocity was good too, over 3000 Fps.

8208 is another option, I shot my buddy's loads for his rifle and they clock almost 3200 Fps from my gun, with 155 grain SMKs.

That's a warm load and no mistake!

How do you handle the powder compression, do you use a very long drop tube or seat the bullets right out?

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:
GH,

If you've done all the testing necessary to settle on your 42.7 gr of H4895, then stay there.

A fantastic 100 yd group does not make a great 600 or 1000 yd group. you've got to get your ES/SD way down. Like 12 or less for SD. That 50 ES is string you up and down at 1000.

You'll want to run a primer test next to determine if their is a primer better suited for your load. Don't just look for accuracy but you need to test for ES/SD. Gather up a bunch of different primers, standard and match grade and load 5 each. Precisely weigh out each powder charge. Make sure each piece of brass is as identical as possible. Not just weight, trimming etc, but also sized, primed, charge and seated all in the same day. Brass, after a while, can take a set or loosen up after time. Also, charging something, say 10 rounds, one day and the others a day/week later can change stuff due to barometric and humidity changes.

Once you determine a great primer buy a bunch, 1000-5000. Then it's off to seating depth.

Each rifle/bullet/powder combo is different. Yo have to test how far off or into the lands your combo likes. Neck sizing is fine. I'm not going to get into it. I FL size, just setting the should back .001"-.002" in a target/tactical match load; .003" in a hunting rifle.

RWS is good stuff. Make sure and segregate your grass into groups is the weight varies. I've run 100 pc of Lapua and it's all the same, within 2 gr. Winchester, about 80% runs with 2 gr and the rest will run as much as +/- 2.5 gr for a 5 gr range.

You'll find some of he most comprehensive 308 data over on Sniperhide.com. Those guys live and breath the 308.

Have fun.

Alan

Thanks a lot Alan, fantastic post!

A good tip about loading small batches on different days, the weather here is quite changable and I do tend to load up the night before the range session. I'll load up enough for a season of the best load when I find it.

How do you measure how far the shoulders are being set back, I understand the principle behind adjusting my die just not how to measure the set back.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Ghubert, are you limited to using the lighter Palma style 155 gr bullets for some reason (slow barrel twist or course "Palma" rules)?

If not, I'd try the heavier 175 gr. bullets (like the 175 gr. Sierra MKs.

I've never liked the 155 gr. Sierra MKs for long range (or short range). They were basically designed for one reason..... to meet Palma competition rules (which required the use of 155 gr. ammo).

I have used H-4895 and IMR-4895 powders with the 168gr. Sierra MKs ...... but only out to 600 yds. Very small groups.... but at loadings that were usually about 1.5 - 2.5 grains below max. This resulted in velocities that go sub-sonic at about 850-900 yards and when THAT happened ..... the 168 gr. MKs would do the "crazy chicken" (complete loss of stability).

Varget has several advantages over the 4895 powders. It tends to produce better accuracy at higher velocities. It meters VERY consistantly. And it has better loading density in the .308 case.

Primers? I like Federal LR Match primers. But others might work as well or better.

Seating? I like my RCBS case Mic. It can tell you MANY things about what your rifle likes..... and doesn't like.

Thanks Daman, I will definitely give Varget a try and quite probably N140-150 as well. I am limited to 155 grain bullets at the moment but perhaps with F/TR class shooting on the horizon I'll give the heavier bullets a go.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
IN my experience, it is the powder you are using...

I hate H 4895. of course it may be an availability issue in England for an alternative..

since VitaVourhi powders are available over there, I'd consider using them instead..

how ever if you want to use North American available powders, with that bullet, I'd move to IMRs 4895 or IMR's 4064 like MFD recommended.. you'll find more consistency in those than H4895.

If you prefer ADI/Hodgdon Powders, with that bullet, I'd either consider the use of Varget ( as mentioned) or H 322 which is often overlooked..Benchmark would also be an option..

all offer more across the board consistency than H 4895. I see too many "oddities" show up with that powder.. it'll be a tack driver with a load, then vary it even slightly up or down a tenth of a grain or two, and your groups grow dramatically...

stringing also could just be the harmonics of your barrel... is it free floated? what type of contour do you have on your Sako?

potential trigger adjustment that magnifies the further out you get?

optics? the further out you get your deviation on your point of aim is more noticeable?

lotta factors once you start shooting further out there..

how does it compare to the 600 or 800 meter/yds results?

Thanks Seafire, in answer to your questions:

The rifle is the Sako 75 Stainless laminate fluted varmint contour: http://www.sako.fi/oldmodels.php?varmintlamss75.

I needed a target rifle for my slightly built girlfriend and something that I could take out stand hunting in the rain without worrying about rust all the time. It's fluted, 23.6" lomg, 0.860" at the muzzle and freefloated. The rifle is not glass bedded.

The rifle has a single set trigger, the unset release is nice and quite crisp at 3 1/2 pounds ( this is the competition minimum) and the set trips at 6 ounces.

The scope is a Leupold VXIII long range jobbie with side parallax and sort of Christmas tree graticule which is supposed to give aim points at various ranges by turning the magnification ring. It all sounds a bit Heath-Robinson to me so I dial in. I agree with you about the importance of consistent POA, indeed I think peep sights are difficult to beat at 1000 yards with the standard NRA round target we use. The scope has a fair amount of mag and the crosshairs are reasonably fine so I hope this is not the issue.

600 yard results are good, the rifle seems to shoot RG 7.62 to around an minute and a half but with the occasional flier, the RWS NRA ammo used in the formal TR competitions shoots better than MOA and this stuff is loaded with 155gr SMKs and RWS cases. My homeloads compare very well with this latter load at 600 but string at 1000, I have not had a chance to chrono the factory stuff but would be willing to place a small wager on the ES being lower. I am hoping to combine the internal ballistics of that load with the attention to detail and prep of homeloaded, fireformed brass.

I really didn't have much compression. My loads are about 2.9" OAL and it is just on the edge of the powder getting compressed. No powder crunching at all.