With Prarie Dogs in mind, what would be a good scope?

The Nightforce and Mark 4 type scopes are a bit out of my league, but I am thinking of something like a Zeisss Conquest 6.5x20 with Rapid Z Varmit reticule.

I would like to get your opinions, since this would be my first dedicated pd rifle.

Also, what do you think of using calibrated turret knobs, such as the one's by Kenton Industries...they are marked for your specific load in 50 yard incriments out to 1,000yards.

Thanks!

Taking into consideration the price range you're talking about and the Zeiss you may be hot on, I think you can get the job done for less.

For shooting small targets at long range, you need a scope that functions mechanically flawlessly. When you dial 9.25 MOA the scope better actually move 9.25 MOA. You'd be surprised how many high $ scopes don't "work" properly. Many of them have reticles set up in MOA or mRad or ballistically that are not correct as well.

I just read an article on 6mmbr about "Holding Over or Dialing for long range". You should go there and check out. The writer compared the two methods and found that the truth in reality was that any prarie dog past about 350 yards was safe while he was trying to hold over with the ballistic reticle.

If you get one, confirm the drop with YOUR LOAD and what power setting makes the aimpoints work. HC has a great thread in the Medium Bore Section "Using Mil Dot Reticles" and you can do a search and learn a lot there.

As for turrets from the scope manufacturer already marked supposedly for your drop data for your load....total waste of $. The turrets are marked already in MOA or MIL. Just shoot and confirm the settings; that's what they're there for.

As far as the scope you are asking about (Zeiss Conquest) , my gunsmith has done a ton of testing with different scopes and he says that that one happens to be one of the worst.

I have 2 Leupold VX2 6X18 models with the Long Range Varmint Duplex. I have installed Stoney Point target knobs that engage the coin slot. They function and dial perfectly. You can get it done for less than 500$ that route.

Look at Sightron as well.

With prarie dog shooting you will have plenty of time to range the dog and dial correction. You may not even want a Ballistic Reticle to confuse the situation. I have 3 Burris Signatures that have target knobs (8-32's) on my prarie dog rifles, but would not recommend them at all. They function poorly and the company will not do anything about it. I use them anyway because I can't see spending 1000$ on each of my rifles to hit a prarie dog.

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As for turrets from the scope manufacturer already marked supposedly for your drop data for your load....total waste of $.

Ok, I have to agree with Hotcore on this one. That's one "thingy" I don't like. Every time I change loads I'm supposed to send my scope back in?

Wow that's allot to think about and I will definetly read over those articals.

So you like Leopold and Sightron...any other models??

About those turret knobs...I do not reload, and once I decide on a load I will stick to it. With this in mind, do you still NOT recommend it?

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About those turret knobs...I do not reload, and once I decide on a load I will stick to it. With this in mind, do you still NOT recommend it?

NOT recommend what?

I DO recommend target knobs. It's the only way to precisely put a bullet on a long range target.

Sorry about that. What I am refering to are turret knobs which are calibrated for a specific load...marked in 50 yard increments up to 1,000 yards.

I have a 6.5x20x on my .204. Works great. It's a leupold with varmint hunters reticle. Second choice would be a Nikon and third choice a Simmons. You will need adjustable parallax and some kind of long range reticle would be nice. You'll need a top power of at least 14X, although I know some pd shooters who do well with straight 12X scopes. PS. 50mm objective lenses are unnecessary as all your pd shooting will be in good light. After years of pd shooting these suggestions are just personal opinions.

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Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Sorry about that. What I am refering to are turret knobs which are calibrated for a specific load...marked in 50 yard increments up to 1,000 yards.

You don't need any "custom" knobs at all. Most will be marked in 1/4 MOA delineations or "clicks". When you develop a load or just use factory ammo, you can chronograph it, plug the necessary inputs into a ballistic program like JBM (free online) and have a good starting point. Then go out and shoot at targets with a spotter at the longest range possible using the data you print. Check it and write down any differences between it and actual drop. You can then go back to the program and "tweak" the velocity input till the drop output matches your actual.

Print that out, laminate it, and hang it from your scope foe reference while you shoot.

Range the target, check the data card, dial the correction, aim and kill...repeat till the prarie dog town is a ghost town

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Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Sorry about that. What I am refering to are turret knobs which are calibrated for a specific load...marked in 50 yard increments up to 1,000 yards.

Everyone is correct, no one but "you" can determine where the Bullet will actually Impact at a specific Distance. That means the "Pre-Calibrated Settings" are just not accurate enough.

Some of the current crop of External Ballistic Programs, or the External Ballistic Tables located in the back of the Bullet Manufacturers Manuals get you fairly close, but "you" still have to verify the actual Drop Rate.
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As for Power on your Scope, get all the Variable Power you can find for P-Dogs at 1000yds, or even 400-600yds. The Upper Powers allow you to "View the Mirage", which will help you make accurate guesstimates about the Wind at distance.

You do not need a particularly Large Objective lens for P-Dogs, and since they are not shot in Low Light conditions, the only thing a bigger Objective will give you is a Larger Field of View and more Weight. But, the other side of that argument is both can help locate the P-Dogs at distance quicker and steady the rifle a little bit more(due to the extra weight).

There are a lot of excellent Scopes available that will meet your needs, and they DO NOT have to break-the-Bank to buy them.

The Mil-Dots I like would cover a P-Dog and make hitting them difficult, because you couldn't see the P-Dog for the Dot. A "Finer" Reticle would be a Plus. And then the Target Knobs do make good sense - just not Pre-Calibrated.
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Lets say you got the Pre-Calibrated Target Knobs and lets also say they were Dead-On for your Load. Then you shoot that same Load 200-400 times and the Throat moves forward(aka changes the Barrel Harmonic). Now what do you do?

You would do what the other folks are saying you should do in the beginning - shoot the Loads you want to use at whatever distances you want to shoot, and determine your own Specific Drop Rate from what you see on the Paper. There are no Short Cuts to consistent Accuracy.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

I have a 6.5-20x50 Vortex viper on my mid range gun. I got it with the "mil-dot" reticle. I like the scope, but still haven't made up my mind on the reticle or not. I'm planning a trip up in mid June, or maybe mid July. I'll have a better idea about that after targeting some pd's, instead of just paper.

How far away are you expecting to be able to hit pd's with that rig? Not a trick question. Some guys are using the 204 out there pretty far. The distance you are planning to shoot it will dictate the scope power you'll want. I'm planning on shooting my mid range guns out to 500-600 yards. The one has the viper scope, the other one has a Nikon buckmaster 6-18x on it.

Get the most scope you can. You will spend a lot of time looking through it. The better the scope clarity, the easier it will be on your eyes, and the easier time you will have making hits. You can give yourself a headache from straining to see through a crappy scope all day.

Also, you didn't mention it, but hopefully you are bringing more than one gun. Not only for various distances, but to be able to trade off and keep barrels from getting hot. My first trip early in the season, I'll likely take 5 guns. Two will be "short range" guns, out to 200-300 yards. Later in the season, as the "survivors" smarten up, there will likely not be any short range shots, so those 2 guns will sit home.

Again Fellas, thanks for the detailed responses.

HC, I totally understand what you are saying about the pre-calibrated not being exact, just "fairly close". Why I am considering them, and the problem that I have, is that I live in the Metro NYC area, and I have no access to a range further than 100 yards. There is just no way that I can do the required shooting to see what my gun/loads are doing as you describe.
That's why I want/have to sight-in at 100 yards, install the pre-cal knob, and head west for the shoot. Dammit!!

With this in mind, what would you suggest for me to do?? When you say that the pre-cal knobs will be "pretty close", how close are we talking? I have one on my 7mmRemMag and have shot Baboon with it in Africa with it out to 516 yards, but the Baboon is a large target, so "fairly close" was good enough.

I really do appreciate your advice and look foreward to your comments!

By the way, I am leaning toward a Zeiss Conquest 6.5x20x50 scope, but am open to suggestions. I would love a Mark 4 or Nightforce, but too much money right now.
What other scopes would you reccommend in Conquest price range?

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That's why I want/have to sight-in at 100 yards, install the pre-cal knob, and head west for the shoot. Dammit!!

Do not buy the custom knobs.

Sight in at 100 yards. Chrono the load. Put the parameters into JBM and print a drop table. Go prarie dog shooting with a buddy to spot for you. Adjust the drop data if you need to while you are shooting prarie dogs.

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Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
With this in mind, what would you suggest for me to do?? ..

I do understand your situation.

1. The first thing I'd do is "Hunt" for a L-o-n-g-e-r Range which is relatively close by. One group which will be glad to help you is "our" NRA. If there is anything at all relatively close to you, they can tell you where it is.
2. Local Gun Shops can provide info about Ranges, I've used them as I moved across the Southeastern USA as great resources.
3. Call your Fish & Wildlife Dept., get the name of the Game Warden closest to you and meet him. They have also given me excellent info about both Ranges and Hunting opportunities. If they realize you are serious and present yourself well, they go out of their way to help.
4. Drive out into the "Country" and look for someone who is Baling Hay. Talk to them about swapping some "Sweat" for a chance to Shoot. You'll get some Nos along the way, but some of the best Hunting I've ever experienced came from doing this. One lady said, "I'd appreciate it if you would Kill ALL THE DEER YOU SEE!!! They are eating all my Beans!"(Mrs. Evans has hundreds of acres of Soy Beans).
5. Stop by a rural Church and begin dating a gal who's Father owns a HUGE Farm.(I always wanted to do this one. ) You might as well love one with a Farm as opposed to one that doesn't.
6. Find someone over in Pennsylvania who attends the reallllllly l-o-n-g distance shoots. They have lots of them over there. You could make an overnight-weekend trip out of it. Not every weekend, but twice amonth would do wonders for your Long Distance Shooting. Especially when you get to see the guys that do it all the time. Even watching how different people get into their Sling is an education in itself.

That should be enough to get you started.

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When you say that the pre-cal knobs will be "pretty close", how close are we talking?

If I quoted you a "number" I'd be pulling a clinton on you. They should be close enough to get you onto a 3' Target at 400yds " IF " you are sighted in at 100yds. Could be within a foot, or might not even cut paper, but chances are you should be able to hit a fairly Large Target.

I believe the best thing to do is "work your way out", 100yds at a time, to the distance you want to eventually shoot. You should not be in a hurry to get a bunch of shots off. If that situation comes up, it is best to sit back, drink a soda pop, and let the other folks get in a rush. You will just burn ammo and have ZERO confidence in the final results.

What you will eventually see is that you reach a point where the Wind affects your groups so much that there is really no need to attempt to shoot farther. I hope Antelope Sniper dives in with comments on the Wind. He is one of the few folks on here that I've seen post a good bit on the Wind.

Wind separates the good shooters from the great shooters.
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And I believe R might know a bit about the Wind - if it is listed on his PHONE!
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My buddy Don has a Zeiss and it is a fine scope. If you like it, that would be a fine choice with the proper Reticle and Target Knobs.

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Do not buy the custom knobs.

Sight in at 100 yards. Chrono the load. Put the parameters into JBM and print a drop table. Go prarie dog shooting with a buddy to spot for you. Adjust the drop data if you need to while you are shooting prarie dogs.

Leopard, a free JBM drop table that you can make here:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Will be more accurate, more flexable, and less expensive then pre-engraved knobs. In addition, load specific knobs do not help a scope's resale value.

I like Slims idea of the Vortex for an alternative brand. I don't own one, but have only heard good things from people who do. Here's one I would consider:

http://swfa.com/Vortex-6-24x50...le-Scope-P44560.aspx

As HC mentioned, a little wind will significantly increase a prairie dogs life expectancy.

One of my favorite pdog loads shoots a 52gr Sierra Match king around 3650. At 150 yards, a full value 10 mph wind blows you 2". That moves you from center mass, to a clean miss. At 20 mph, your off at 110 yards.

Even with just a 5 mph gust will blow you 3 inches at 250 yards.

But if the wind comes up too much, the pdogs ususally go down anyway, so that will save you alot of ammo.

OK so I THINK I get it...

I went to JBM Drop Chart and entered the data for a 204 Ruger 39gr Blitz King at 4,000 FPS.

The first colum is Range
The second colum is Drop in inches
Third Colum is for Drop in MOA

So if the drop in MOA for a particular range is 3 MOA, does that mean that I just go up 3 clicks in elevation??
If it is 3.8 MOA do I just round it off to 4 clicks up?

Am I correct?? If so, I see why you are all telling me to forget about the pre-calibrated knobs...it's easy!

I also like that Vortex...

Please tell me that I'm on track with this!

One last thing. I looked at the SWFA Vortex Scope line, and I see that they offer the same scope with different settings. One says .25 MOA, which I assume is the 1/4" that we are talking about, and the other is for .10 MIL.

I assume that I should get the .25 MOA Model??

What is the .10 MIL?? I assume it's for MIL Dot adjustment??