Another slow Sunday, afternoon. Just got through eating some venison ham steaks I marinated overnight and threw on the grill. Finishing up making a pot of vegetable soup with the other lb. of venison.
Thought I’d check out this new long range forum with a couple thoughts and questions for you long range guys.

Let me say at the outset, I have absolutely no problem with whether anyone shoots targets or game at 10 yds, or 1,500 yards, or farther.
Prolly’most reading this have attained the age of accountability even if you’re like me, 60 years old and not yet a mature adult.

Since this isn't my discipline, I'd like make a few observations, and to make some inquiries.

Shooting:

Although I consider myself a “meat” hunter, I am am member of the Pearland Shooters club. We have two ranges on which you can shoot . One range to three hundred yds., any style.
The other a bench rest range, where you must shoot off bench, 200 yds. Max. I shoot bi-weekly if not weekly, usually at the benchrest range and usually at both 100 and 200 yds in the same session. I chrono all loads, so I have a reasonable idea as to velocity. That taken with BC, it’s not too hard to be accurate within an inch out to 200 yds. first shot out of a cold barrel, when hunting. Most all my rifles have been tricked to some degree, so they are MOA shooters or better at least to 200yds.
Currently it is not practical for me to shoot over three hundred yds. I’d have to make some definite re-arrangements, and to be able to practice out to a thousand, might take some doing.
I shoot from 17 cal up to 45 cal in rifles. I have a Leupold gold ring HD spotting scope that will max out at 45 power.

Question: How many of ya’ll have the option to/ do practice at 500 yds. or more.

Before I went to Montana, I zero’d ,my 338 Ultra Mag and my 300 win mag at 300 yds. IIRC that put my bullet at 4” high at 100 yds. Kill zone on a whitetail is say 8”. Wonder how many here know the MPBR for their rifle. Do you hold over or dial in clicks when shooting between 600 and 1,000.

At 600 or even a thousand yards, what is the minimum caliber bullet hole which you can discern its location on a whiteboard target.

If I’m correct, to calculate MOA at any distance, multiply 1.047 by the distance in yards and divide by 100. So at 600 yds. if you have a 1 MOA rifle, that means you should be able to keep 5 shots in a 6.282” circle, in dead calm with an excellent rest.

How often during a range session do you walk/drive/helicopter the 600/1000 yds. to your target. I used to get wore out just riding my 4 wheeler to the 300 yard mark.

Hunting?

The ultimate goal of all my target shooting is to be able to kill stuff DRT. I like killin, skinning, and dismembering animals. I then cut up/grind and later cooking their flesh. Ted has it right. Kill it and grill it. I don't know how it is where you hunt, but the tenders never get past the gate at our place.

Now having said that!

Say you're in an area like where I hunt ............



Lets say you've walking for while, or even better yet, you’re sitting at some position that is above the line of sight. You’ve been looking south, and you happen to turn about 90 degrees to the east, and out of the corner of your eye, you see movement. So you stop and raise your binos to get a better look. You see a really good buck way the hell off, quartering toward you. He's not trailing a doe, and not aware that you're within a thousand miles. You've done your homework, know your bullets trajectory out to 600 yards, and you either hold over or dial in in order to get on target. Next you range with your range finder, and decide he's 550 yds. You get a good hold, try to still your breathing. Now he's been walking at a quartering angle for another 10 seconds while you’re getting ready, and walks behind a copse of oaks. You wait for him to come out from behind that copse of trees, 10 seconds, thirty seconds. Where the hell is he? Then all of a sudden he comes out 50 yards or so, to the right of where you saw him the last time. Seems there’s a little ravine you couldn't see, that he went down into. Now your heart is really beating. He' not 550 yds now. Is he 520 yds, 470 yds. He's now turned broadside heading for a 500 acre stand of Juniper that's so thick you'll probably not see him again, at least today anyway. It could be the first day of season, and you may get several more chances to hunt this buck. It could be the last day of your hunt. You've got a bout 5 seconds to make a 450 to 500 yd shot at a buck with an 8" kill zone, with a known 1MOA rifle. Your hearts a thumpin’. Lust takes over. You want this buck and you want him now.

Do you have a good rest.
Have you accounted for wind! (I once shot a doe at 590 yds. The wind blew my bullet about 20 " from my estimate POA)
Have you accounted for range (as there is considerable difference in bullet drop between 450 and 500 yds. than there is at 100 and 150 yds.
Do you take the shot?

Let’s say you do take the shot. I don’t know bout you, but from just about anything over a 243, I tend to lose the sight picture in the scope due to recoil.
During the excitement, and between the time it takes from the split second you made the shot till you can recover, look with you’re naked eye, scope or binocs, you don’t have a clue which way the animal took off. Did he drop in a depression, right there? Did he run back the way he came.? Did he make it into the timber” Did he run toward you? How long should you wait before going to observe. Is it now 15 minutes before dark?
You try to collect your wits and say to yourself. I heard the whack of the bullet. I know he’s hit. Was he standing next to the bush by that scrub oak or was he a little further to the right. At 500 yds, chances are you’re not going to make the call and be within 20 yds. of the point of impact when you go to start looking for a blood trail. You call your buds to come help you track.

I’ve had the preceding scenario play out more than once at 200 yds. and under. No animal DRT and no blood trail. A total bummer. That’s probably the main reason I don’t shoot at 500 yds out.
Just sayin’

Once again, your thoughts?

Best
GWB

GWB,

You bring up some great points. Such an extensive post, I'm not sure i'll respond to all your questions.

Living in Utah I can run up the canyon behind my house and shoot up/down, across canyon "forever" on Nat Forest, distance wise, or I can drive 45 miles and, again, shoot "forever" on flat land in all directions as it's BLM. I feel for the folks back East of me. It's something that needs dedication. I do not feel someone should get a solid 200 or "what ever" zero and depend on their factory produced drop/dope sheet. They need to get out and verify and practice. Thus, it may not be the easiest thing or even practical for someone with out the available ranges.

With my Zeiss set at 45x, I can, with proper weather conditions (cold winter days with little to zero wind), see 6.5mm holes at the 600 yd line.

If I can see my holes, I stay put and keep shooting. If not, I drive via what ever method available. I have a world class 1000 yd range 70 miles from me. I make the trip once per month. $5 per day range fee and they provide a couple of elec golf carts or Kawasaki Mules to drive the distance but we can also drive our POV's down to the targets too. No requirement to shoot off the bench as we hold a sniper match once per month and we always go prone unless the snow (6565' elev) is deep enough to prohibit doing so.

What about hunting? I do hunt, at ALL ranges! I shoot what ever is presented to me. My last animal was my Alska/Yukon moose @ 15 yds with my 45 Colt. My longest is a Wyoming antelope @ 465 with a 7 Weatherby.

My max distance is determined by the animal, my rifle, my personal max distance I feel confidant with said rifle and a good dose of judgement when it's time to shoot the animal.

Depending upon what scope I have, I either dial, hold over via 2 MOA hash marks, B&C reticle, or dial via my new CDS turret dials.

Something at 550+. I'd better be prone or have a heck of a great position somewhat higher.

If he's steadily cruising, I'm not shooting. I need time to reverify my LRF and wind.

With the scenario you provided, I don't shoot.

Alan

In Geedubya's scenario I don't see an "ethical" shot. Way too much cover. In a few steps the animal can be completely disguised in brush.

Most of the long range hunters I have spoken with live in areas that do not allow baiting such as we do in Texas. Baiting brings them in close and long range shooting is neither necessary nor required.

BDC reticles are great but generally do not compensate for windage. Most I know have a relationship of trust with their spotters and rely on dialing it in.

Geedubya, I know you are just looking to pick a fight, but I will respond anyway.

First, I have two custom long range rifles. One shoots 1/2, the other shoots better then 1/4 MOA with hunting bullets. I have access to both a 550 and a 1000 yard range. The shorter range has much better weather condition and is close to my house, so it gets used more.

In the last few years, I've killed critters every where from 25 to 1000 yards. It was all a matter of what circumstances dictated.

Lets take a look at your proposed long range shot, and how I would handle it.

First off, we sight in our rifles different. My rifle is zeroed at 100 yards. That means when all the dials are pointed at zero, I'm dead on at 100. I carry a drop chart graduated in 25 yard increments, and have the 100 yards increments memorized. I typically carry my scope set to +2 1/4 MOA, which puts me dead on at 300 yards, and point and shoot out to 350 yards. Anything beyound that range I will "dial in". In other words, I will reach up to my M1 Knobs, and change the zero to that range.

Now, the first thing I want you to understand about long range hunting, is that it's not a fast action sport. Long range shots require time and patience.

So lets take your example. Actually the country in your example is perfect for a good spot and stalk, so if I didn't have a good setup, If the wind was in my favor, I'd probably stalk up on it. Lets say for some reason stalking conditions are difficult, so we are going to shoot from a distance.

The first thing you need to do is adjust your headspace and SLOW DOWN. Speed shooting is great for pistols at 7 yards, but that's not the same we are discussing. 5 seconds for a 500 yard shot? Unless I'm already on a steady rest and have the area pre-lazed, I'll pass and wait for the next shot. Does are seldom alone, be patient, another one might step out.

So lets walk through the thinking for the above shot setup. Fist, get cover and a solid rest. Looks like I'm a bit elevated, so I can probably kick out the bipod and go prone. Laze the target. 590 yards. Ok, well call it six, and dial in 7.5 MOA on the scope. Now so long as the deer stays between 550 and 650 yards, I don't need to make any more scope adjustements for range, I can hold over/under up to 6 inches and still have my crosshair on the hair. That covers distance, now for the real problem....Wind. At 600 yards, a full value 10mph wind blows me 15 inches. No wind is best, followed by a steady wind. A gusting wind is the real problem. If you set for a 10 MPH wind, and it gusts to 20....well there's that 15 inches again....Gusting from 10 to 30? That's a deal breaker for me...

Lets say it's a realitively calm Wyoming day, and the wind is gusting fm 10 to 15 mph, and it's full value (blowing 90 degrees across you bullet path). 5mp at 600 yards is an 8" variation. So dial in 2.5 moa for wind, and hold to windward side of the vitals. If the wind blows me off a bit, I'm still in the vitals. So now that I have my shoot parameter, I wait. If she comes out where I want her to, great. If not, now at least I know where she is, and can make a plan on how I intend to go and get her. Is there any water down there? Why are they going into the Juniper, sun coming up? Maybe I should some set up here this evening? Or did something spook them, and do I need to go look for them in the next county? Did I see some orange on that ridge that might push them back my way? Maybe I should just post up right here and be patient. In any event, a good long range rig cannot replace good hunting skills. It's just something that can be used in ADDITION to good long developed hunting skills. In addition those of us dedicated to the sport of long range hunting have not thrown away our judgement. We have just adapted a wider range of circumstance to which we are willing to apply that judgement.

Long post, and I'm sure I'll miss things. But I'll do my best.

I find shooting steel much better than paper at long range. You get a positive feedback (sound), and can see hits well past 1k.

We shoot until it's hard to see what exact hit is yours on steel, then go paint and repeat. If we want to shoot groups we'll make the targets fresh before doing so, that way there's no mistaking where you hit.

I wouldn't ever take a shot at an animal I wasn't confident in, (unless it's a "varmint") as it isn't ethical to the game.

With a braked rifle or a light kicker you should be able to see the bullet impact on a long shot, which helps immensely.

At 500 yards and 5 seconds to shoot...most likely not.

AS,
you misread me entirely, if you've read many of my posts, you'll notice it is not my habit to put others down (outside the political forum) or take them to task for what they shoot, the way they shoot, coming or going.
My queries were serious based on where my head is, at and the country I hunt. I had thought that was expressed that at the outset of my post. Perhaps I should reread and add a disclaimer.

I have absolutely no problem with what, when, or how, another individual hunts, and won't even begin to my beliefs or more's in your stead.

To re-iterate what I said at the outset. Slow Sunday afternoon, new forum, asking questions. Thankful for replies and a chance to learn how others do and see.

Best
GWB

For some people, they like the challenge of being invisible to game at close range, and a much smaller minority like the challenge of shooting that game at long range.

I'd say the difficulty is similar, but the practices are completely different, and often that's where the disputes come in...both like to do something difficult, they just aren't really comparable in any other terms.

When I bow-hunt, I set up at 15 to 25 paces. I do not take shots at deer at over 25 paces and hogs at over 35 paces. It is definitely a challenge to come to full draw on a wiley old mature doe at 15 paces. Usually around October 1, when bow season starts it's not unusual for the temps to be 90 to 95 degrees and 90% humidity when I'm sitting in a tripod. Try doing that with the sun at your back about two hours before sunset,in a long sleeved leafy wear camo or ghilli. Talk about sweating. I can lose 5 pound in an afternoon. You know those deer can smell you, heck they can sense you at 15 paces. Although I'm a rifle hunter, its a rush to arrow game that close. Totally different experience.

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
For some people, they like the challenge of being invisible to game at close range, and a much smaller minority like the challenge of shooting that game at long range.

I think it's never a bad idea to be skilled in both!

Geedubya, Glad to hear it was intended as a legitimate question. Considering the amount of ordinance expended just in the discussion to open up this forum, I was just wondering how long it would take for a bomb thrower to arrive. I apologize if I mistook you for one when you asked if someone who shoots 1000 yards even knows the MBPR of their rifle....I'm sure there will be one. I'm just glad it's not you. That said, I hope the rest of my post was informative for you.

So, to answer you in more detail. Yes, I know the MBPR of my rifle, but I don't worry about it as much as the medium hunter would. A good LRH has dials, and knows how to use them.

My rule of thumb is, that if you don't have a Mil-dot/TMR/Horus (or other similar range finding reticle) and M1/target knobs, and know how to use them, you are not truely a LRH. They guy with say a Boone and Crocket reticle using holdovers as his primary range adjustment is still in the medium range camp. Maybe the extended medium range camp, but still medium range none the less.

On an average day I can see 7mm holes at 500 yards with my 40x Leupold gold ring spotting scope. One a good day I can see them at 600. I check my targets after every group, just like I do if I'm shooting 100-200 yards. If anything I check them more often, just to make sure. This of course assumes I have the range to my self, which I often do, so long as it's not too close to hunting season.

Let me know what other legitimate question we can answer for you. I'm always glad to help.

quote:

Let me know what other legitimate question we can answer for you. I'm always glad to help.

+1

can do/will do

As an aside. Not everyone that will read these threads is an accomplished shooter, hunter much less long range shooter and hunter. If by questions asked, such as referencing MPBR, some folk may not know what that is, and may take the time to look it up, and figure it out for their rifle and take it into consideration when hunting. Perhaps a question such as that, though known and understood by many, will start them on the quest, to be a better shooter and hunter, whether at short, medium or long range.


Best
GWB

Mr.'Dub,

Like yourself I don't consider myself a long range hunter, not of big game in any event.

The one and only long shot, past 300 yards for me, I have taken was on a wildebeest at 380 metres.

I was using my trusty old 30.06 with a 180 grain Interlock at 2550 fps. I hadn't intended to fire at that range but the first time I pulled the trigger on him, a good 150 yards closer, I had a no-shit misfire. Click, nothing, what-the-hell-do-I-do-know, the works. But the old blood was up, the PH had a range finder and shoot ol' betsy, much to the amusement of the full-on target boys, up to 600 yards most months at my rifle club holding off of for wind and elevation. It's got a fixed power Meopta scope, 7x, with three lines on the 6 o'clock stadia, the first of which is on at 350, the second 450 and the third bang on at 600 ( my secret to being able to hold off the elevation at 600, by the way ). On a good day MOA at 600 for 5 shots is very possible off a sandbag.

Anyway, the point is that being human I wanted this wildebeest and because I had practised regularly beyond the 380 metres that the PH called up I was able to get comfortable and get the shot off with some confidence at least. If I hadn't been used to shooting at much longer range, maybe the butterflies would have set it and that would have resulted in bad shooting for sure.

I touched the round off, called it in the chest as if I was at the range and the chest was a bull and had the strange feeling of having the rifle come back down and settle on the still grazing Wildebeest. The time of flight was just under half a second according to my ballistics program and I distinctly remember praying that the beast would take a step or generally move.

That was the unacceptable bit of shooting at game at was after all isn't a very long way away compared to some of the shots one hears about.

Killed my beast but would do it again particularly willingly, my rifle, my shooting and the wind aren't the only variables you see.....


A

Ghubert, you experience emphasises one of the most important aspects of LRH. There is no substitue for trigger time. If you had not been practicing at 600 yards, you may not of had the confidence in yourself to make that shot. Lets just say my first few 600 yard groups were "very humbling". But once you start shooting those 1/2 MOA groups at 400 and 500 yards on a regular basis, that critter standing at 380 yards on a calm day won't bother you in the least. Last year I was unable to practice as much as I would of liked, so I had to let go some shot's I would of taken most year. For me, another LRH principle is; If you don't get the range work in, you don't take the shots. Fortunatly the weather got the game moving, and provided some stalking opportunities. My longest shot was just a touch over 216 yards.

Ditto on AS. I don't think there is anything that will build your confidence on a medium shot say 300-400 yds. than practicing at 800 and a thousand. Pushing your limits on targets makes for a lot better hunter. You just can't loose your perspective when it comes to game. I always felt like the closer the better if possible.

Prolly' opening up a can of worms in re: baiting,
but what the heck. Basically having a little fun with Sasquatch (If you've ever met Andy, you'll know why he's called Sasquatch. Size 17 shoe?)

Andy sez.......

quote:

Baiting brings them in close and long range shooting is neither necessary nor required.

Not always the case.
Once upon a time years ago, I was want, maybe even prone, to shoot a little further than I do today.
I had been up for close to 48 hours. Been out in the Cold wind and rain for abut 5 hours. I was tired, and ready to head home. But alas, no venison.
Across the canyon from where I was sitting, up on top of a ridge, one of my buds had a feeder.
It had been ranged at 590 yds from where I was sitting. I happened to be hunting that day with my Remington Sendero chambered in 338 RUM. I was loading 180 gr. ballistic tips IIRC, at the time. Anyway, to make a long story short. I let fly at a doe under the feeder. Bang, flop. I was zeroed at 250, but I knew my ballistics out to 600. That day, it was both necessary and required if I wanted to bring home venison. Turned out it was the only deer I saw that day.

GWB