My rifle made in 1905 has British proof marks. Can anyone explain why this would be? Thanks!

They were popular in India and Africa.

And anything going into england was proofed, and many came back; I have an M1 that is BNP proofed; lend lease, possibly. And I have a Win Model 70, also BNP proofed. Not rare to find them.

Lend Lease guns, per se, as I know that DPCD knows, were not proofed by either London or Birmingham Proof Houses but went instead to Enfield.

But later...after the military disposed of them? See below.

So these were military guns and if they show London or Birmingham proof marks it will from a later time when they were long out of service use and had entered the civilian market.

I had a Colt .38 Super Super Match that was one of the Purchasing Commission guns or "Heydrich" guns that showed BOTH original Enfield Proof and, later, Birmingham (when it went to auction) Proof.

Even military contract BSA or Enfield made or Fazackerley rifles would only have received a commercial, civilian, proof also as above.

So that M1 Carbine was probably sold by Weller & Dufty an arms auctioneers in Birmingham as all arms sold or even displsayed for sale (or auction) had to be proof marked. Or via Sam Cummings or similar operators in the UK.

Back to topic. That .405 will either have been proofed at original commercial import into the UK for civilian market sale.

Or if privately brought in and never at that time proofed done LATER when it (usually) went to auction as deceased estate.

British proof marks tell a tale. A gun can be dated to exactly when it was proofed from them. Search on the internet. Hallowell is a good starting place.

Hope it helps.

In my Winchester days I had 5 405 rifles but never had a BP one. I treasure the proof marks and the English safari history. Many purists will say the proofs decrease value but not to me.
Can you post pics?
Cal

Apparently there's a 405W coming up in the next Holt's auction which has Lyon & Lyon, Calcutta after being sold in India

My pal in Namibia has a .405 model 95 with BP. I used it a little when I visited for a hunt one time. Great fun to think about what it might have done in it's early life. It shot a bit high, even with the sights set at it's lowest point. Not sure if the old Kynoch loads were not as powerfull as his handloads, or just shot high.

There was one in the bazaar in Afghanistan that had British proof marks and was roll marked with the name of a British gun shop in Calcutta.

There was a rule about rifles being 100 years old to be imported. Everyone was fairly sure that the rifle wasn't importable, because of the proof marks age. He wanted $1200 for it. It was in good enough shape that a 405 WCF in 1895 Winchester with Calcutta proof marks (who probably killed a 100 tigers, rhinos and banteng) was probably worth $5,000. I'd probably consign it for a year to Westley Richards and see how it went. Someone who is in love with nostalgia would probably pick it up for $10,000.

Those guns were pretty common in the good ole days, I recall the Win. 92 called the El Tigres in 44-40s...Lots of them floating around Texas..Many were in the gun racks at gun shops in EL Paso, Tx...Mod. 95s were common also..Folks bought them in Juarez across the border from El Paso, lots of good gunsmiths in Juarez back then..I even saw one copy a pre war mod. 70 in 9mm of some sort that the factory produced and saw it sell for big bucks at an El Paso gun show..I advised the buyer, but after the price he paid, he ignored my tale of its birth...and even then one didn't go to Juarez and stir up poop!!! Id loved to had that beautiful rifle...He also made and rusted up copies of old collectable spurs and bits and sold them as original..He was a master of metal..show him a part or whatever and he could duplicate it, by memory alone if necessary..

I kinda wish my 405 had British proofs - it certainly has the sights of a British express rifle.
I agree with Cal. It adds to the provenance even if we can only guess at the rifle's history.

I don't believe, however, that a rifle, being sold into India or any other English colony at the time was required to pass proof through Birmingham or London unless it originated in England.
I have and have seen many Mausers which were sold in India which have no British proofs at all so would expect there to be American rifles in the colonies without proofs.
My bet is that the Winchester was actually sold into England which does require proofing and from there, who knows where it could have headed off to.

Here is a really cool one... pricey but totally restored.

http://www.hallowellco.com/win...20by%20Turnbull.html

Beautiful rifle bwana, $8500 seems pricey for it though. Lots of large engraving on the receiver

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Those guns were pretty common in the good ole days, I recall the Win. 92 called the El Tigres in 44-40s...Lots of them floating around Texas..Many were in the gun racks at gun shops in EL Paso, Tx...Mod. 95s were common also..Folks bought them in Juarez across the border from El Paso, lots of good gunsmiths in Juarez back then..I even saw one copy a pre war mod. 70 in 9mm of some sort that the factory produced and saw it sell for big bucks at an El Paso gun show..I advised the buyer, but after the price he paid, he ignored my tale of its birth...and even then one didn't go to Juarez and stir up poop!!! Id loved to had that beautiful rifle...He also made and rusted up copies of old collectable spurs and bits and sold them as original..He was a master of metal..show him a part or whatever and he could duplicate it, by memory alone if necessary..

sounds it might a been that POS bernie wolfe. he and a local would bring back loads of 94s from juarez and rust em up real good. bernie would "factory engrave" em b4 the rusting process. they wanted me to put em in my shop on consignment and i told em i already put the word out on em. ended that.

Another cool '95 with BNP markings...

https://martinigunmakers.com/f...ake-down-in-405-win/

Around $7,900 US.

Doug Turnbull can really put out some great stuff, he is a genius of the gun trade..and he gets the big bucks, rightly so as he resale is awesome on his guns..Ive had him engrave or re-ingrave the lettering and rust blue, always to perfection..